42 Hz is 4 string bassguitar, Piano goes down to 27 or something,
If you have little monitor speakers than you benefit from a sub in a big way, If you have medium monitor speakers you'll have significant benefits, pending on the F3 of your monitors
If you have large floorstanders than the benefts are smaller.
If you only play music than you don't need a sub down to 20Hz. If you use one that is a little less heavy and plays well to 30Hz you probably are better off for music alone.
If you have little monitor speakers than you benefit from a sub in a big way, If you have medium monitor speakers you'll have significant benefits, pending on the F3 of your monitors
If you have large floorstanders than the benefts are smaller.
If you only play music than you don't need a sub down to 20Hz. If you use one that is a little less heavy and plays well to 30Hz you probably are better off for music alone.
Sub Needed
I actually have 3 subs, 2 for music and one for HT. I dont play them together.
I find that for music you need a sub that goes down to 20 hz or so. Output is not really of importance, as long as the quality of the bass is there. A good musical sub ( not a boum boum machine) adds a sense of grandeur to the music that you dont achieve with small speakers.
1- The key is to cross it low enough that it doesn't start to play at the same frequencies that your mains are capable of.
2- You have to set the volume low enough that you dont actually hear the subs but only feel them. One mistake that most people do is to set the volume way too high, this is were you loose the original purpose of having the subs in the first place.
For HT you dont really want to go to 20 hz , 30 hz is good enough, what HT needs is decibel output. You can see that the specs are different for music/ HT
I actually have 3 subs, 2 for music and one for HT. I dont play them together.
I find that for music you need a sub that goes down to 20 hz or so. Output is not really of importance, as long as the quality of the bass is there. A good musical sub ( not a boum boum machine) adds a sense of grandeur to the music that you dont achieve with small speakers.
1- The key is to cross it low enough that it doesn't start to play at the same frequencies that your mains are capable of.
2- You have to set the volume low enough that you dont actually hear the subs but only feel them. One mistake that most people do is to set the volume way too high, this is were you loose the original purpose of having the subs in the first place.
For HT you dont really want to go to 20 hz , 30 hz is good enough, what HT needs is decibel output. You can see that the specs are different for music/ HT
Member
Joined 2003
While watching a Sade concert DVD last week, I noticed the bass drum shaking the room. Many/most movies include bass deep enough to shake the room, but I wasn't expecting it with music. With my curiosity up, I fired up my RTA. I was surprised to find strong 20Hz output...apparently from that smallish bass drum!
I mentioned this to a drummer friend and he clued me in to the fact that drummers now use electronic "triggers" on drums to introduce a variety of effects including the sound of different head materials, drum depth, etc, etc. So, no surprise to my friend, the drummer on this DVD was apparently "triggering" deeper bass than the drum itself could produce. I've since checked a couple other concerts I remembered having deep bass & they also had fairly strong content to 20Hz.
So, if you want to hear & feel everything, take your system to 20Hz...and below.
Twin IB Subs
I mentioned this to a drummer friend and he clued me in to the fact that drummers now use electronic "triggers" on drums to introduce a variety of effects including the sound of different head materials, drum depth, etc, etc. So, no surprise to my friend, the drummer on this DVD was apparently "triggering" deeper bass than the drum itself could produce. I've since checked a couple other concerts I remembered having deep bass & they also had fairly strong content to 20Hz.
So, if you want to hear & feel everything, take your system to 20Hz...and below.
Twin IB Subs
JMO but for music extension to 20hz, though not needed to allow
enjoyment of music, is the icing on the cake of a good system.
I don't have extension to 20hz at the moment, around 30Hz, and
the extra clues it gives to ambient acoustic sizes is surprising.
I can't see how proper extension to 20Hz could possibly make a
system worse, and can see that it would be very good for a system.
sreten.
enjoyment of music, is the icing on the cake of a good system.
I don't have extension to 20hz at the moment, around 30Hz, and
the extra clues it gives to ambient acoustic sizes is surprising.
I can't see how proper extension to 20Hz could possibly make a
system worse, and can see that it would be very good for a system.
sreten.Do you need a sub for playing music?
Yes and no.
1. If your speakers can handle the 20-20 KHz at full SPL, there is no need for a subwoofer.
2. What is full SPL? I have a article laying around published by some smart dude from the AES, Audio Engineering Society - recommended reading!!! They concluded that you'll need 4 x 15" woofers to produce realistic SPL's with acceptable distortion in a average room. They argued for this quite in a very scientific and convincing way. Now, this was done before 2" throw woofers and 1000W class D amps were available. Still, the conclusion was that there is no substitue for 4x15" woofers... I think I still have the article, maybe I'll scan it and e-mail it to ya if you want. Not sure if is ok, but the article is from '83 or something. ( Is this a forum regulation breach? ). It is very good reading.
3. I know of very few speakers who boasts 4x15" or equivalent...
4. Oh yeah, full SPL. Playing the music back at the same listening level that it was recorded with...For a rock concert that is LOUD!!!
5. Hmmm, kinda lost my thread now... Sorry. For me, since I started using subwoofers there has been no turning back. No way. Need the bass!
Yes and no.
1. If your speakers can handle the 20-20 KHz at full SPL, there is no need for a subwoofer.
2. What is full SPL? I have a article laying around published by some smart dude from the AES, Audio Engineering Society - recommended reading!!! They concluded that you'll need 4 x 15" woofers to produce realistic SPL's with acceptable distortion in a average room. They argued for this quite in a very scientific and convincing way. Now, this was done before 2" throw woofers and 1000W class D amps were available. Still, the conclusion was that there is no substitue for 4x15" woofers...
I think I still have the article, maybe I'll scan it and e-mail it to ya if you want. Not sure if is ok, but the article is from '83 or something. ( Is this a forum regulation breach? ). It is very good reading.3. I know of very few speakers who boasts 4x15" or equivalent...
4. Oh yeah, full SPL. Playing the music back at the same listening level that it was recorded with...For a rock concert that is LOUD!!!
5. Hmmm, kinda lost my thread now...
Sorry. For me, since I started using subwoofers there has been no turning back. No way. Need the bass!
""Hi people do you think adding a subwoofer going down flat to 20hz is sense?? for 100% music........sorry if dis may seem to be a stupid question""
I feel it adds to the scale of music - I listen to a lot of electronic stuff, and it sounds weak on systems without subs.
I'd agree with Sreten - it adds an extra layer of fun to music you'd already enjoy...
Cheers
Rob
I feel it adds to the scale of music - I listen to a lot of electronic stuff, and it sounds weak on systems without subs.
I'd agree with Sreten - it adds an extra layer of fun to music you'd already enjoy...
Cheers
Rob
I think the answer has been given now.
It depends .................
I lived with my "La Folia" without a sub for about 18 years. They gave me a lot of breathtakin' musical joy and experience, though I knew, that the bass was audible but not at the right level. Especially voices were excellent.
Now I have a "sub" ranging from about 30 Hz, and dividing electronically at 80 Hz, the major difference is more physical power and body.
It's not the fact, that I can hear the deep notes better - I'm not even sure I can - but it's different! - I feel the music more than I did before........
Well, that was not much of an answer ............
("La Folia" is a magnetostatic planar speaker) see pic.
It depends .................
I lived with my "La Folia" without a sub for about 18 years. They gave me a lot of breathtakin' musical joy and experience, though I knew, that the bass was audible but not at the right level. Especially voices were excellent.
Now I have a "sub" ranging from about 30 Hz, and dividing electronically at 80 Hz, the major difference is more physical power and body.
It's not the fact, that I can hear the deep notes better - I'm not even sure I can - but it's different! - I feel the music more than I did before........
Well, that was not much of an answer ............
("La Folia" is a magnetostatic planar speaker) see pic.
Attachments
you could always look at it this way
in a standard sealed box if you force your drivers down to the 40-50hz mark your your requiring a good 15-40% more excursion from your drivers compared to say 70hz
you lower your power handling
you increase distortion
ported enclosure...still similar to extant even if you tune higher to compensate for it, then you'd have to worry about lower material below tuning
it rears it's head when you want to go louder =]
in a standard sealed box if you force your drivers down to the 40-50hz mark your your requiring a good 15-40% more excursion from your drivers compared to say 70hz
you lower your power handling
you increase distortion
ported enclosure...still similar to extant even if you tune higher to compensate for it, then you'd have to worry about lower material below tuning
it rears it's head when you want to go louder =]
Gah, not got much to add, but I want to add something! So... my system is quite poor without it, and my speakers are strong to about 40hz. I don't think the endless references to the lowest fundamental frequency produced by a given instrument tells all. I don't listen to much organ music, but my system is cold without the sub going, and with it on the added ambience/imaging and warmth is beautiful, altho in my case dance music for example, is perceptibly slowed down a touch. Also, when a low synth note comes in or a kick drum is hit, it just isn't complete without a sub, on ordinary speakers...Andre Baptiste said:
Parametrically equalized subwoofer = least expensive method for high quality bass
In most listening rooms the bass frequency response at the listening position is worse than +/-10dB measured using a slow sinewave sweep.
The most common complaint among audiophiles is a bass boom(s) caused by a standing wave(s).
It doesn't matter if you use the most expensive monopole speakers ever made -- the room acoustics will dominate the bass frequency response.
In most rooms, what you hear will not be a close match to what was recorded.
Using a separate subwoofer allows you to use a very inexpensive
digital parametric equalizer such as the Behringer Feedback Destroyer to flatten the bass frequency response under 80Hz.
to better than +/- 5 dB at your listening position (compared with worse than +/-10 for most unequalized listening rooms).
A large majority of small and medium sized rooms have very uneven bass frequency response mainly due to standing waves
(under 80Hz.) most effectively addressed with parametric EQ
... and comb filter cancellations above 80Hz. which are best addressed using bass traps
The BFD is very inexpensive and works well as a subwoofer equalizer ... but is not a component you'd want to use with full range speakers (it's good, but not THAT good!)
In most rooms, an inexpensive parametrically equalized subwoofer, such one or two Adire Audio Rava, will produce more natural sounding bass than any non-equalized monopole subwoofer or full-range speaker at any price.
The alternatives to a parametrically equalized monopole subwoofer will cost more to develop the same SPL of bass
with the frequency response at your listening position
within +/- 5dB under 80Hz.
(1) A room full of bass traps (large tube traps occupying at least
2 to 3% of the total room volume, for one example)
(2) Dipole bass often, but not always, does not need parametric equalization.
(3) Some large listening rooms produce decent bass without EQ or bass traps -- in my experience only 1 of 10 actual home listening rooms measures this good (better than +/-6dB)
In most listening rooms the bass frequency response at the listening position is worse than +/-10dB measured using a slow sinewave sweep.
The most common complaint among audiophiles is a bass boom(s) caused by a standing wave(s).
It doesn't matter if you use the most expensive monopole speakers ever made -- the room acoustics will dominate the bass frequency response.
In most rooms, what you hear will not be a close match to what was recorded.
Using a separate subwoofer allows you to use a very inexpensive
digital parametric equalizer such as the Behringer Feedback Destroyer to flatten the bass frequency response under 80Hz.
to better than +/- 5 dB at your listening position (compared with worse than +/-10 for most unequalized listening rooms).
A large majority of small and medium sized rooms have very uneven bass frequency response mainly due to standing waves
(under 80Hz.) most effectively addressed with parametric EQ
... and comb filter cancellations above 80Hz. which are best addressed using bass traps
The BFD is very inexpensive and works well as a subwoofer equalizer ... but is not a component you'd want to use with full range speakers (it's good, but not THAT good!)
In most rooms, an inexpensive parametrically equalized subwoofer, such one or two Adire Audio Rava, will produce more natural sounding bass than any non-equalized monopole subwoofer or full-range speaker at any price.
The alternatives to a parametrically equalized monopole subwoofer will cost more to develop the same SPL of bass
with the frequency response at your listening position
within +/- 5dB under 80Hz.
(1) A room full of bass traps (large tube traps occupying at least
2 to 3% of the total room volume, for one example)
(2) Dipole bass often, but not always, does not need parametric equalization.
(3) Some large listening rooms produce decent bass without EQ or bass traps -- in my experience only 1 of 10 actual home listening rooms measures this good (better than +/-6dB)
For music, I prefer having the LF come from the same (relative) point source as the rest of the music. Unfortunately that usually requires having a large box and more complex design work. Short of that, I like having the mains hit -3db at a minimum of 70 Hz and have the sub XO'd at 50 Hz. If I can't get all the LF from the mains I like as much as possible and the sub set as low as possible. My personal requirements for movies are far less stringent.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.