Just a question to this lovely forum-
Our sound system is in need of new 18" subs. We have 8 old cerwin vega earthquakes loaded with Fane Collosus 18XB that are in the last leg of their party life, and we have access to a CNC router in the Bay Area (and we found a bunch of baltic birch for free), so we are looking to upgrade. We've been dreaming of building a bunch of hogs for a couple years now, thinking they are the answer...But, I've noticed a lot of systems using tapped horns, Danley for instance, and was wondering what the difference between the two.
From what we can gather, folded horns are the best for big outdoor parties, which is what we do, and the tapped horns are best for compact systems. We are not worried about size (they have to be portable enough for two people to lift, no double 18").
Thanx for any help.
h
Our sound system is in need of new 18" subs. We have 8 old cerwin vega earthquakes loaded with Fane Collosus 18XB that are in the last leg of their party life, and we have access to a CNC router in the Bay Area (and we found a bunch of baltic birch for free), so we are looking to upgrade. We've been dreaming of building a bunch of hogs for a couple years now, thinking they are the answer...But, I've noticed a lot of systems using tapped horns, Danley for instance, and was wondering what the difference between the two.
From what we can gather, folded horns are the best for big outdoor parties, which is what we do, and the tapped horns are best for compact systems. We are not worried about size (they have to be portable enough for two people to lift, no double 18").
Thanx for any help.
h
More correctly, a TH is really a correctly implemented back loaded horn. The hog is traditional one. The high compression ratios of modern THs make them work better, but require stout drivers that simply weren't available when scoops were in widespread use.
Traditional "folded horns" really need to be big to be any good. The old CV's aren't big enough. Stacking helps, but if it's too small it's too small. A couple of us are thinking about true 30 Hz front loaded designs, but everything being considered is significantly larger than a labhorn. If you want compact, go TH.
Traditional "folded horns" really need to be big to be any good. The old CV's aren't big enough. Stacking helps, but if it's too small it's too small. A couple of us are thinking about true 30 Hz front loaded designs, but everything being considered is significantly larger than a labhorn. If you want compact, go TH.
Tapped horns are significantly more efficient than regular folded horns, you will really appreciate that outdoors.
In traditional curved scoops based on the old JBL plans, any bass comes from the too-short rounded horn driven by the backside of the driver. The front-facing direct speaker can only supplement the higher frequencies, and there is no attempt to get the output from both sides to be in-phase into the room, and they fight each other. The curved scoop horn is much too short to delay by a half-wavelength at low frequencies. They're only good down to about 80 hz, but they go up high enough for 2-way systems. They will not replace your current "W" folded horns.
Hogs fold the back side at least 2 more times than a scoop, so they have a longer horn off the back side, making a much more gradual flare rate, and the back is delayed more, so it's in-phase with the front direct radiation at a lower frequency than with scoops. Has anyone measured the path length to determine what frequency they're in-phase? It definitely starts looking more like a tapped horn. I really don't know enough about them to do any analysis...what's the path length of the back side? Somebody must know...
In traditional curved scoops based on the old JBL plans, any bass comes from the too-short rounded horn driven by the backside of the driver. The front-facing direct speaker can only supplement the higher frequencies, and there is no attempt to get the output from both sides to be in-phase into the room, and they fight each other. The curved scoop horn is much too short to delay by a half-wavelength at low frequencies. They're only good down to about 80 hz, but they go up high enough for 2-way systems. They will not replace your current "W" folded horns.
Hogs fold the back side at least 2 more times than a scoop, so they have a longer horn off the back side, making a much more gradual flare rate, and the back is delayed more, so it's in-phase with the front direct radiation at a lower frequency than with scoops. Has anyone measured the path length to determine what frequency they're in-phase? It definitely starts looking more like a tapped horn. I really don't know enough about them to do any analysis...what's the path length of the back side? Somebody must know...
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This is a sim I did of an EL36 enclosure loaded with a modern B&C driver in 0.5PI space. It doesn't look too bad...
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Tapped horns sound the same whether there's 1 or 8 out. 8 is just louder.
A sane-sized FLH won't do much on its own, but will improve with 4-8 per side.
At the end of it all, I'd take the THs for scaleability, though I suspect the FLHs will win in output, so long as driver heatsinking is adequate.
Chris
PS - the above sim is representative of 4 subwoofers in a field.
FWIW, a THAM15 loaded with a Beyma 15P1200Nd will nudge 139dB at 40Hz in the same situation, 136.5dB in the TH saddle. This is with the driver hitting Xmax at 50Hz.
If you're prepared to go past Xmax (and you can, to around 45mm p/p before the suspension starts to lock up) and throw some power around, that same THAM15 in a corner will pass 140dB across its range.
A sane-sized FLH won't do much on its own, but will improve with 4-8 per side.
At the end of it all, I'd take the THs for scaleability, though I suspect the FLHs will win in output, so long as driver heatsinking is adequate.
Chris
PS - the above sim is representative of 4 subwoofers in a field.
FWIW, a THAM15 loaded with a Beyma 15P1200Nd will nudge 139dB at 40Hz in the same situation, 136.5dB in the TH saddle. This is with the driver hitting Xmax at 50Hz.
If you're prepared to go past Xmax (and you can, to around 45mm p/p before the suspension starts to lock up) and throw some power around, that same THAM15 in a corner will pass 140dB across its range.
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Taking into consideration the 18TBX100's Xmax of 9mm, the peak SPL output of the EL36 in 0.5PI space is actually around 145dB in its passband, though it would be running out of Xmax at frequencies below Fb (around 50 Hz if my sim is correct). The image above was a sim that was taking into consideration the amplifier power available to the club at the time (the sim was just to show what might happen if they used the same enclosure with a different driver).
I haven't worked pro or even semi-pro in a long time, so I don't have the practical experience you're looking for. But:
I've never seen a conventional horn that isn't more efficient and puts out more if turned into a tapped horn. Any sim that shows that not to be the case probably has some restriction in the particular TH design that's not present in the particular conventional horn. There can be other challenges with tapped horns, like getting smooth response over much bandwidth while keeping all that efficiency, but if you're talking about efficiency & output, and getting low, at this time they're pretty much the winners.
And they do have the same improvements in coupling and making larger wavelengths etc. from arraying as all other speakers; I think some of the subjective impression that "Tapped horns sound the same whether there's 1 or 8, 8 is just louder" is because one can already go low with efficiency and output. But I'd be surprised if an array of tapped horns didn't improve the efficiency and directivity of the lowest output until the mouth dimensions reach a half-wavelength in size, just like any other sources; they ought to array nicely IMHO. 8 probably "sounds" different but at pretty low frequencies?
I've never seen a conventional horn that isn't more efficient and puts out more if turned into a tapped horn. Any sim that shows that not to be the case probably has some restriction in the particular TH design that's not present in the particular conventional horn. There can be other challenges with tapped horns, like getting smooth response over much bandwidth while keeping all that efficiency, but if you're talking about efficiency & output, and getting low, at this time they're pretty much the winners.
And they do have the same improvements in coupling and making larger wavelengths etc. from arraying as all other speakers; I think some of the subjective impression that "Tapped horns sound the same whether there's 1 or 8, 8 is just louder" is because one can already go low with efficiency and output. But I'd be surprised if an array of tapped horns didn't improve the efficiency and directivity of the lowest output until the mouth dimensions reach a half-wavelength in size, just like any other sources; they ought to array nicely IMHO. 8 probably "sounds" different but at pretty low frequencies?
Ivan from DSL confirmed that THs don't get deeper extension from coupling like FLH does. That's where the "Tapped horns sound the same whether there's 1 or 8, 8 is just louder" comes from. The LF extension is the same for any number of boxes, which is not the case for FLH.
Tapped horns will be beneficial if you have gigs where you want to pull out small numbers of subs for exactly this reason. Undersized FLHs like the earthquakes work great in large groups, but they lose their extension when you only have one or two.
If OP's thing is making big stacks of subs for outdoor events, bigger FLHs with longer path lengths and larger mouths would probably be a solid upgrade.
Tapped horns will be beneficial if you have gigs where you want to pull out small numbers of subs for exactly this reason. Undersized FLHs like the earthquakes work great in large groups, but they lose their extension when you only have one or two.
If OP's thing is making big stacks of subs for outdoor events, bigger FLHs with longer path lengths and larger mouths would probably be a solid upgrade.
Tapped horn requires large displacement, stiff suspension, low (.35 or lower) qts drivers.
There are a number of drivers from 12" to 21" that will work well in a tapped horn, a ND a tapped horn usually has a low cutoff around 1/3 wavelength of the horn.
Flhs are effective down to 1/4 wavelength horn length, but require a rear chamber and larger mouth, which generally equates to a larger box for given driver diameter. They work well with drivers with qts as high as .5, and in fact, using "super drivers" like we use in tapped horns can "choke off" the low end of the horns output (steeper rollout earlier than expected). The sesled rear chamber also helps us take full advantage of the excursion control a 1/4 wavelength horn provides (better impedance matching to air in a "reactance anulled" design)
If you plan on being able to provide at least 36 Sq ft of mouth area at every show (6flh with 24"x36" mouths) I would defintely go flh.
There are a number of drivers from 12" to 21" that will work well in a tapped horn, a ND a tapped horn usually has a low cutoff around 1/3 wavelength of the horn.
Flhs are effective down to 1/4 wavelength horn length, but require a rear chamber and larger mouth, which generally equates to a larger box for given driver diameter. They work well with drivers with qts as high as .5, and in fact, using "super drivers" like we use in tapped horns can "choke off" the low end of the horns output (steeper rollout earlier than expected). The sesled rear chamber also helps us take full advantage of the excursion control a 1/4 wavelength horn provides (better impedance matching to air in a "reactance anulled" design)
If you plan on being able to provide at least 36 Sq ft of mouth area at every show (6flh with 24"x36" mouths) I would defintely go flh.
Some inspiration: JBL 2226H 30 hz "horn" i built. It is a front loaded "horn". Actually a front loaded pipe. The pipe is very much like the ones you get in tapped horns. The back chamber is about 100 liters.
The difference between this design and a proper exponential or hypex horn is the limited bandwidth. This design is much easier to build because all angles are 90 degrees except for one, inspired by the Martinsson Tham series of tapped horns. I build this one using only hand held tools.
You cannot put any driver in this kind of horn. I have not figured out what the proper 18" driver parameters are.
I like front loaded horns since they can be phase corrected using FIR DSPs.
The difference between this design and a proper exponential or hypex horn is the limited bandwidth. This design is much easier to build because all angles are 90 degrees except for one, inspired by the Martinsson Tham series of tapped horns. I build this one using only hand held tools.
You cannot put any driver in this kind of horn. I have not figured out what the proper 18" driver parameters are.
I like front loaded horns since they can be phase corrected using FIR DSPs.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Interesting design, does this cab behave like a regular FLH(needs many cabs & big frontal area to come alive)? Does the limited bandwith translate into higher efficiency within the narrower bandwith compared to a more conventional FLH?
What are the recent most bang for the buck driver(available in Eu?) for this? Would it work with 18" if made wider?
Tapped midrange?
I've got a pair of Neo 10's, not used much since I've gone to efficient drivers, pro and vintage. ( now biamping with only @ 7 watts x 4 channels, plus a 1000 watt sub).
Does anyone think a flared horn mouth would beef up the 200-1000 hertz range in the Neo 10 output, as well as possibly stabilizing the bottom end?
I very much like suspended no baffle speakers, both for sound, and swapping out drivers.
But I couldn't be more pleased with the first try results of a pro 18" driver in a 114" prior to opening tapped horn.
Thanks to any replies.
I've got a pair of Neo 10's, not used much since I've gone to efficient drivers, pro and vintage. ( now biamping with only @ 7 watts x 4 channels, plus a 1000 watt sub).
Does anyone think a flared horn mouth would beef up the 200-1000 hertz range in the Neo 10 output, as well as possibly stabilizing the bottom end?
I very much like suspended no baffle speakers, both for sound, and swapping out drivers.
But I couldn't be more pleased with the first try results of a pro 18" driver in a 114" prior to opening tapped horn.
Thanks to any replies.
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