I'm in the process of building a pair of subs (for below 80 Hz) for my all horn system. I'm dead set on sealed boxes and have already built a pair of 2.0 ft sq. I know it's not the smartest approach - to build boxes first and then to look for drivers...well, nobody's perfect and I like woodworking. My musical tastes are classical and jazz. Anyways, I've looked at some drivers (I'd prefer 10" over 12", but I'm open to being convinced in the error of my ways) and noticed a huge disparity in prices. You can buy a $40 driver and you can buy a $400 driver of the same size. Specifically, I've looked at Dayton Audio drivers ($120-170) and Seas W26FX001 ($400) Do I get twice the performance if I buy Seas? Those of you who truly experimented and compared (and know first hand what they're talking about) - do you get your moneys worth buy buying expensive drivers?
Generally, yes.
To compare woofers you need to compare displacement, which is Sd (cone area) times Xmax (linear displacement).
The Seas W26FX001 linear displacement is 14 mm peak to peak, Xmax is one way, the Seas has only 7mm Xmax.
The Seas costs more than a typical subwoofer because it goes smoother to a higher frequency, not of much concern for most who would cross a sub around 100 Hz.
The more expensive drivers tend to have more displacement, doubling displacement means 6 dB more output potential. Doubling displacement requires twice the magnet structure, better heat management systems, and tougher suspensions, all expensive. Often, two lesser drivers are a better choice, as doubling cone area gives a "free" +3 dB gain in sensitivity, and two voice coils may handle heat better than one.
That said, Dayton has some very good $$ to displacement ratios.
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You can simply wire a pair of drivers in parallel if the amplifier is capable of running the lower impedance, or you can wire drivers in series. A parallel pair is half the single driver's impedance, a series pair is double.
For more than two drivers you can wire even amounts of drivers in series parallel combinations.
I actually thought of using 2x10" drivers if I could find a model that would work well in 2 ft sq. I already have Dayton Audio SPA 500 plate amps. Any recommendations?
Hi,
Cheap drivers are generally poor, expensive drivers generally poor value.
You don't get twice as much in the slightest paying top dollar
over buying good value good drivers at about half the price.
A pair of Eminence Lab12's or Dayton 12's is a good idea.
Generally 2cuft will suit decent 12's sealed. 2x10's can
work too as an equivalent to a 14" driver, but its all a
balance of max SPL, sensitivity and bass depth.
Max SPL probably 2x10's, otherwise probably 1x12.
rgds, sreten.
Cheap drivers are generally poor, expensive drivers generally poor value.
You don't get twice as much in the slightest paying top dollar
over buying good value good drivers at about half the price.
A pair of Eminence Lab12's or Dayton 12's is a good idea.
Generally 2cuft will suit decent 12's sealed. 2x10's can
work too as an equivalent to a 14" driver, but its all a
balance of max SPL, sensitivity and bass depth.
Max SPL probably 2x10's, otherwise probably 1x12.
rgds, sreten.
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I agree... audio is a compomize between feeling unhappy and a serious argument with your bank-manager...
I sure have trouble finding any major item around my system that I bought new. That's a kind of trade-off: get superior stuff but accept the trouble and risk of buying second-hand.
I find a lot of "consumerism" at DIYaudio, folks thinking the latest gear is the best and dismissing old things peremptorily. Frankly, the improvements of the latest drivers and amps over those that were well designed decades ago is pretty minor.
Got my Dayton-Wright ESLs in May, 1979. Can't think of anything better for what they do.
Ben
I find a lot of "consumerism" at DIYaudio, folks thinking the latest gear is the best and dismissing old things peremptorily. Frankly, the improvements of the latest drivers and amps over those that were well designed decades ago is pretty minor.
Got my Dayton-Wright ESLs in May, 1979. Can't think of anything better for what they do.
Ben
+1
I've never been able to part with my original Adcom amps - they still sound great and can drive lowZ loads that tend to cripple a lot of current generation amps.
Personally, I've never had good luck with cheap drivers. I've gotten some inexpensive drivers surplus that were excellent, but cheap off the shelf drivers, not so much. I like to say there must be a much larger market for buzzers and sirens than I had realized. I haven't had a spare $ to try it, but I have to wonder if a good design can be made with some of the MCM drivers. They certainly don't cost too much, but I haven't heard any reports, good or bad. They have a couple that look like good candidates for a sub.
Egindin,
Getting deep bass from a 2cuft sealed box will require a Linkwitz transform filter and a BIG amp.
For an "all horn system" a high efficiency woofer solution is often selected in order to deliver both matching details and matching dynamics. "Fast Bass" comes from a wide bandwidth woofer with modest Mms, modest Le, plus a strong motor in a big box. For bass, efficiency = big.
For a small sealed box, using the largest possible woofer with a Linkwitz Transform and a high power amp is a common recommendation.
The $200 Peavey model 47910 LoRider 18" woofer is well reviewed in the subwoofer forum. You can get deep bass in a 20"x20"x9" 2cuft sealed box with enough power.
$200 good quality 18" woofer
Peavey
model 479910
LoRider 18
96.4 db/watt
163 gram Mms
Peavey
model 560600
LoRider 18
95.2 db/watt
198 gram Mms
Getting deep bass from a 2cuft sealed box will require a Linkwitz transform filter and a BIG amp.
For an "all horn system" a high efficiency woofer solution is often selected in order to deliver both matching details and matching dynamics. "Fast Bass" comes from a wide bandwidth woofer with modest Mms, modest Le, plus a strong motor in a big box. For bass, efficiency = big.
For a small sealed box, using the largest possible woofer with a Linkwitz Transform and a high power amp is a common recommendation.
The $200 Peavey model 47910 LoRider 18" woofer is well reviewed in the subwoofer forum. You can get deep bass in a 20"x20"x9" 2cuft sealed box with enough power.
$200 good quality 18" woofer
Peavey
model 479910
LoRider 18
96.4 db/watt
163 gram Mms
Peavey
model 560600
LoRider 18
95.2 db/watt
198 gram Mms
There is no ideal solution and there is no such thing as " can't win" !
You have already said you want it to work below 80 Hz.
You also need to know how 'low' you want it to go. Use correct room positioning and proper driver Fs and other parameter selection. Corner placement will lift the low end quite a bit . With a sealed box ( good for controlled bass !) you can lift the low end quite a bit without it sounding like a one note sub !
Do a simulation to see what placement can do.
You also need to know how loud you want it to go. This will involve checking Xmax and power handling capacity and sensitivity. With a sealed box and proper positioning you could get away without bass eq like the LR transform which reduces dynamic range due to considerable bass boost.
Ten inchers and a plate amp should do pretty well. Now why don't you plug in all the data and see what the simulation shows and what the max spl will be. Then make a decision and get your parts. Otherwise go through the same routine with other components and check till you get what you want. For normal loud ( not deafening ) bass a single Peerless XLS 10 inch or Eminence Lab10 inch will work out well. To rock the whole house you need much more ! You NEED to know what you want eventually ! Others can't tell you ! Your ear and brain combination is different and unique from others !
About making a box in advance and getting a speaker for it ! Not at all the right thing to do ! If you hit upon a right (ideal?) driver , you will be lucky. But there are ways around it, within limits.
After all this is DIY.
You have already said you want it to work below 80 Hz.
You also need to know how 'low' you want it to go. Use correct room positioning and proper driver Fs and other parameter selection. Corner placement will lift the low end quite a bit . With a sealed box ( good for controlled bass !) you can lift the low end quite a bit without it sounding like a one note sub !
Do a simulation to see what placement can do.
You also need to know how loud you want it to go. This will involve checking Xmax and power handling capacity and sensitivity. With a sealed box and proper positioning you could get away without bass eq like the LR transform which reduces dynamic range due to considerable bass boost.
Ten inchers and a plate amp should do pretty well. Now why don't you plug in all the data and see what the simulation shows and what the max spl will be. Then make a decision and get your parts. Otherwise go through the same routine with other components and check till you get what you want. For normal loud ( not deafening ) bass a single Peerless XLS 10 inch or Eminence Lab10 inch will work out well. To rock the whole house you need much more ! You NEED to know what you want eventually ! Others can't tell you ! Your ear and brain combination is different and unique from others !
About making a box in advance and getting a speaker for it ! Not at all the right thing to do ! If you hit upon a right (ideal?) driver , you will be lucky. But there are ways around it, within limits.
After all this is DIY.
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Ha! That's nothing. My 80 Hz bass horn is loaded with 12" Rola field coil driver from the late 1940's...
Right.
Since humankind discovered solid-state diodes and big capacitors (and all kinds of low-ripple big-ampere power supplies designs), I've been wondering when field coils will come back.
Do we have to wait until the Chinese turn off the neodymium tap to get up the motivation? (Kidding)
Now that we don't have to worry about speaker magnets polluting our CRT colours, can anybody explain why we don't see modern field coil drivers with mega-force?
BTW, can a DIYer make, rebuild, or augment their own driver with a field coil? Not too much we do with drivers these days... for good reason. And not much we can do with magnets except for planar drivers.
Ben
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