Go Back   Home > Forums > >
Home Forums Rules Articles diyAudio Store Blogs Gallery Wiki Register Donations FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

MOAK: The Mother of All Karlsonators (aka The Magnificent Monster)
MOAK: The Mother of All Karlsonators (aka The Magnificent Monster)
Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 19th April 2014, 09:22 PM   #1
DeonC is offline DeonC  South Africa
diyAudio Member
 
DeonC's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Kimberley, South-Africa
Default MOAK: The Mother of All Karlsonators (aka The Magnificent Monster)

Hi guys

I had an idea for a subwoofer. I posted the original idea in the Mini Karlsonator (0.53X) with Dual TC9FD's thread. Here is my original post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeonC View Post
Hi guys

I am sorry to come into this thread sideways, but I would first like to hear if my idea is viable at all before I start a whole thread on it.

I want to build a pair of high quality subs for home use. The drivers I am going to use for this sub are the 13" Leak Sandwich bass drivers. I already have 1 pair of ceramic bass drivers and 1 pair of alnico drivers. I am going to get another pair of each for the sub idea I have in mind. Each box will have two ceramic and two alnico drivers in. I will be quad-amping each sub. One of the main box design ideas for I have in mind is a mega-Karlsonator, and I want to know if it will work.

The boxes that I am planning to build will be 188cm (1.88m/74"/6.16ft) tall x 57cm (22.44") wide x 55cm (21.65") deep. The internal measurements will be 182cm (71.65") x 51cm (21.08") x 49cm (19.29"). With that height it will be a real mega-Karlson to start with, but I want to make it a Karlsonator (Karlson crossed with TQWP) design. I estimate with the height of the box that this design should go down low, very close to 20Hz at the bottom end. The problem is that I don't have any TSPs for any of the drivers, but I will also be buying the Dayton measuring suite, and I will be measuring each individual driver. But before I even start that, I want to know if such an idea will work at all. If the Karlson experts give the green light for this idea, I will create a new thread on the Subwoofer forum. Here is a pic for my idea:

An externally hosted image should be here but it no longer works. Please upload images instead of linking to them to prevent this.


Thanks,
Deon
The end result will look something like this, but just much larger:

Click the image to open in full size.

I do not have any TSPs for the Leak Sandwich drivers yet, so I suggested xrk971 (our forum Karlsonator guru) use some Acoustic Elegance drivers to sim the result:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeonC View Post
How about doing a sim with either of the following Acoustic Elegance drivers, just as a proof of concept. I would love to see the results.

Acoustic Elegance Lambda Series TD15H-8ohm:
T/S Parameters:
Fs: 21 Hz
Qms: 4.23
Vas: 467 Liters
Cms: 0.45 mm/N
Mms: 129 grams
Rms: 4 Kg/S
Xmax: 14 mm (peak)
Xmech: 20 mm (peak)
Sd: 855 cm2
Qes: 0.27
Re: 6.5 ohms
Le: 0.3 mH
Z: 8 ohms
Bl: 20.1 T/m
Pe(max): 500 Watts
Pe(transient): 1000 Watts
Qts: 0.26
"no": 1.51 %
1W Spl: 94dB
2.8V SPl: 94.84dB

Acoustic Elegance Lambda Series TD12H-8ohm:
T/S Parameters:
Fs: 26.7 Hz
Qms: 3.72
Vas: 160 Liters
Cms: 0.4 mm/N
Mms: 88.6 grams
Rms: 4 Kg/S
Xmax: 14 mm (peak)
Xmech: 18 mm (peak)
Sd: 530 cm2
Qes: 0.25
Re: 6.5 ohms
Le: 0.3 mH
Z: 8 ohms
Bl: 19.7 T/m
Pe(max): 500 Watts
Pe(transient): 1000 Watts
Qts: 0.23
"no": 1.18 %
1W Spl: 92.9dB
2.8V SPl: 93.77dB
Freddi also suggested trying an MCM woofer:

Quote:
Originally Posted by freddi View Post
hey X - I've got a cheap pick for this project - it not a huge air pump and qts might be somewhat low - got to test mine

MCM 55-1465 Dual Voice Coil Woofer

this driver was used by Marshall Leach in a sub - sat system.

they're $40.99 each 4 and up

MCM Audio Select 12'' Dual Voice Coil Woofer | 55-1465 (551465) | MCM Audio Select

Poly treated paper cone
Rubber surround
Stamped steel basket
2" voice coil
42.6oz. magnet

Specifications::
Power Capacity: 100W/200W RMS/peak (per coil)
Sensitivity: 93dB (W/M)
Impedance: 8ohm (per coil)
Re: 5.8ohm (per coil)
Le: 0.59mH (per coil)
Frequency response: 25Hz~3KHz
Fs: 25Hz
Qts: 0.30
Qes: 0.32
Qms: 3.13
Vas: 203.81 (liters)
Xmax: 5.0mm


in a cluttered room mounted in Karlson 12 with its vents sealed - mic 20inches from aperture - its really pretty punchy - IIRC, qtc in the little K12 is around 1.05 with no fill. This woofer in a sealed K12 might make a F.A.S.T. system that is compact.

An externally hosted image should be here but it no longer works. Please upload images instead of linking to them to prevent this.
xrk971 told me that this is actually more of a tapped horn crossed with a Karlsonator, not a TQWP/Karlsonator cross. xrk971 also said he is a bit tied up at the moment, but he will sim the results as soon as he has a chance. He also suggested posting the results in the Subwoofer Forum, hence me posting all these details here. I am looking forward to seeing what the results will be.

Enjoy,
Deon
__________________
I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it.
Have a look at my favorite thread: Interesting YouTube video clips

Last edited by DeonC; 19th April 2014 at 10:17 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 19th April 2014, 09:42 PM   #2
freddi is offline freddi  United States
diyAudio Member
 
freddi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
MOAK: The Mother of All Karlsonators (aka The Magnificent Monster)
there should be some drivers to make this work well in 1-2-3-4 x12"/whatever size works driver versions.

The original Karlson 15" enclosure developed in 1951 when tuned ~1/2 octave lower than normal as Exemplar, does make imo a very good sounding subwoofer using Altec (I've only tried 416A) - the downside is that the low end response is pretty much dependent on rear chamber bulk and system tuning so a skinny tapped pipe might have a lower cutoff for the same bulk.

Exemplar
An externally hosted image should be here but it no longer works. Please upload images instead of linking to them to prevent this.


here's my lone K18 that's not much bulkier than K15 - it has typical Karlson punch and is good as a 2-way with the slotted K-tube tweeter.
An externally hosted image should be here but it no longer works. Please upload images instead of linking to them to prevent this.


it will be interesting to see what X says the Karlsonator's arrangement can do

Last edited by freddi; 19th April 2014 at 09:50 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th April 2014, 02:40 AM   #3
freddi is offline freddi  United States
diyAudio Member
 
freddi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
MOAK: The Mother of All Karlsonators (aka The Magnificent Monster)
the Karlsonator by Greg B should be an improvement over a simple 1-fold pipelike the one I made with one 4'x8' sheet of plywood loaded with a 295-070 15" woofer. That pipe had tuning ~30Hz, F3 half space ~40, F10 half space ~30, and relatively flat response in a corner to 32Hz

this idea was suggested by "nineleaves" - the "inverted T" or mini-K aperture may have some virtues other than looking cool.

An externally hosted image should be here but it no longer works. Please upload images instead of linking to them to prevent this.

An externally hosted image should be here but it no longer works. Please upload images instead of linking to them to prevent this.

An externally hosted image should be here but it no longer works. Please upload images instead of linking to them to prevent this.
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th April 2014, 06:25 AM   #4
GM is offline GM  United States
diyAudio Member
 
GM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Chamblee, Ga.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeonC View Post
xrk971 told me that this is actually more of a tapped horn crossed with a Karlsonator......
Greets!

Hmm, this is a bit of a hybrid since it's an expanding horn mass loaded by a short vent [MLhorn] loading a reverse taper line [TQWT/P].

As such, with a vertical driver array I'm concerned about the potential for an uneven enough acoustical loading to cause some drivers to 'hog' the power with disastrous results.

I'm not sure that any speaker program can sim this pressure differential accurately enough, so 'caveat emptor' applies.

GM
__________________
Loud is Beautiful if it's Clean! As always though, the usual disclaimers apply to this post's contents.
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th April 2014, 08:52 AM   #5
DeonC is offline DeonC  South Africa
diyAudio Member
 
DeonC's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Kimberley, South-Africa
Quote:
Originally Posted by GM View Post
As such, with a vertical driver array I'm concerned about the potential for an uneven enough acoustical loading to cause some drivers to 'hog' the power with disastrous results.

GM
Hi GM

I am planning to use a 4-channel amp for each speaker, so each driver will have it's own amp. Will this help for the uneven power distribution? If necessary I could separately adjust the power to each driver as well.

Thanks,
Deon
__________________
I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it.
Have a look at my favorite thread: Interesting YouTube video clips
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th April 2014, 09:30 AM   #6
DeonC is offline DeonC  South Africa
diyAudio Member
 
DeonC's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Kimberley, South-Africa
After some of the replies, I decided to throw another few designs in for further discussion.

Here is the first. It is the same as the original design, except that it is a full horn (not a ML-horn) + Karlsonator design:

An externally hosted image should be here but it no longer works. Please upload images instead of linking to them to prevent this.


Next is a design similar to the original (ML-horn = Karlsonator), except that the slot is not at the bottom:

An externally hosted image should be here but it no longer works. Please upload images instead of linking to them to prevent this.


And the last is the same as the previous one, but is also a full horn design:

An externally hosted image should be here but it no longer works. Please upload images instead of linking to them to prevent this.


Let the comments begin.

Deon
__________________
I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it.
Have a look at my favorite thread: Interesting YouTube video clips
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th April 2014, 01:37 PM   #7
GM is offline GM  United States
diyAudio Member
 
GM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Chamblee, Ga.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeonC View Post
I am planning to use a 4-channel amp for each speaker, so each driver will have it's own amp. Will this help for the uneven power distribution? If necessary I could separately adjust the power to each driver as well.
I don't see how, drivers draw current based on the signal and acoustical loading with the signal of course dominating, so one driver could be overheating trying to excurse the amount the signal demands [extremely over-damped] while another can be severely under-damped, so while the former is burning up, the other is 'flapping in the breeze' so to speak and I've learned the hard way that at high power, the differential required to become disastrous can be quite narrow.

Ditto WRT the variance between driver specs, which I forgot to mention earlier.

GM
__________________
Loud is Beautiful if it's Clean! As always though, the usual disclaimers apply to this post's contents.
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th April 2014, 06:55 PM   #8
DeonC is offline DeonC  South Africa
diyAudio Member
 
DeonC's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Kimberley, South-Africa
I was thinking about something that xrk971 and other said. I already have two pairs of drivers, so maybe this design will work well enough for my needs (for now). Not that I want to take away from the discussion of the other ideas, but here is my idea for just two drivers per side:

An externally hosted image should be here but it no longer works. Please upload images instead of linking to them to prevent this.


It still uses a Karlson slot in front of the drivers for that wonderful Karlson slam, and the rear wave loaded into a full standard TH, so it remains a TH/Karlson(Karlsonator?) hybrid. What do you think? xrk971? I am still very curious to see what you sims will reveal.

Enjoy,
Deon
__________________
I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it.
Have a look at my favorite thread: Interesting YouTube video clips

Last edited by DeonC; 20th April 2014 at 06:58 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 21st April 2014, 01:43 AM   #9
xrk971 is offline xrk971  United States
Got Foam?
diyAudio Member
 
xrk971's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Metro DC area
MOAK: The Mother of All Karlsonators (aka The Magnificent Monster)
Sorry I have been really busy with another project so have not had a chance to model this. For 4 drivers along the length you will have a phase issue as GM points out. Two may still work but 4 large drivers are too far apart to be able to excite the same part of the wave unless they were phased differently somehow. It is not as simple as scaling a regular Karlsonator because the profile you are looking for is so different. However, maybe the first thing to try is to take a regular Karlaonator and scale it with a sivglenor maybe dual drivers to see how it looks.
  Reply With Quote
Old 21st April 2014, 02:22 AM   #10
j.michael droke is offline j.michael droke  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
MOAK: The Mother of All Karlsonators (aka The Magnificent Monster)
Default sivglenor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by xrk971 View Post
Sorry I have been really busy with another project so have not had a chance to model this.....However, maybe the first thing to try is to take a regular Karlaonator and scale it with a sivglenor maybe dual drivers to see how it looks.
Hi there X: Tried Google, Bing, Ebay to find a description of a "sivglenor", without result. ...regards, Michael

Last edited by j.michael droke; 21st April 2014 at 02:25 AM. Reason: added Ebay
  Reply With Quote

Reply


MOAK: The Mother of All Karlsonators (aka The Magnificent Monster)Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
mother board!!!! brooks1 Digital Line Level 2 2nd February 2009 04:38 PM
Mother of all Subwoofers Circlotron Subwoofers 5 21st July 2006 08:29 AM
The mother of all home stereos............. in France? RacerXtreme Multi-Way 27 10th December 2004 09:55 AM
The Mother of the Beast Sam Solid State 0 24th June 2001 02:59 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 06:24 PM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 14.29%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2018 diyAudio
Wiki