First off, let me say that I'm loving my FH3's. Plenty of bass ... In fact, I've been moving them more and more OUT of the corners in an attempt to tighten the bass up a bit. Never content, however, I hauled my 81# Adire Audio Rava sub into the listening room yesterday to see how it might integrate with the FH3's. The Rava has a built in fixed 125hz, 1st order high-pass x-over if you use the line level in and outputs. So that's what I did. Cant say I played around endlessly with the volume and x-over points, but in the time I did I can't say I really liked it. The room is 12x17 with and 8 foot ceiling. The FH3's are driven by an MP-301 SET amp (6.5w). I was thinking that by crossing them at 125hz I would open up the speakers since they wouldn't have to mess with the low end. I probably have no idea what I'm doing, but I honestly prefer them without the sub. Anyone have any ideas about why, or whether I'd have better luch integrating a different sub? I'm actually open to building one if I could be pointed towards something that would likely integrate well. The FH3 diffuser with a built in sub isn't really needed, since I have corners to work with. Any suggestions, opinions, advice?
Tom
Tom
So, you were using the outputs from the sub to the FH3's, meaning the FH3s were only getting from 125hz up? I've never done this before, but wouldn't this basically mean that the sub amp is driving everything at that point? I would suspect this as a possible source of displeasure, but I am not familiar with the sub so I have no idea what sort of quality you might expect in this arrangement.
Try something different. Leave your speakers driven by the SET, take line level out to the sub and then simply spend a lot of time working the crossover knob and volume on the sub. I don't know where your FH3s drift off at the low end, but that's exactly where you want to crossover your sub, IMO.
I have dual-EL70 microTowers which can dig pretty deep, and I find my (cheap, "non-musical") sub needs to be crossed over way down low (around 60-75 Hz or so) in order for it to sound right.
As soon as I have too much overlap between the mains and the sub, it sounds like shite. YMMV, because the quality (musicality) of the sub will play a huge role. I just find that I am a lot happier letting the mains play as much of the bass as possible due to the quality of my sub.
Having said all that, I will be interested to hear others suggestions on a good (musical) sub for this type of arrangement, as my sub is by far the weakest factor in my system (despite the fact that I have integrated it as best I can).
One other thing to try. If your sub is ported, stick a pair of socks in the port and see if you like it better. It made a world of difference on mine.
I might even try reverse engineering the existing sub. Replace the driver and optimize damping, bracing, ports, etc.
Try something different. Leave your speakers driven by the SET, take line level out to the sub and then simply spend a lot of time working the crossover knob and volume on the sub. I don't know where your FH3s drift off at the low end, but that's exactly where you want to crossover your sub, IMO.
I have dual-EL70 microTowers which can dig pretty deep, and I find my (cheap, "non-musical") sub needs to be crossed over way down low (around 60-75 Hz or so) in order for it to sound right.
As soon as I have too much overlap between the mains and the sub, it sounds like shite. YMMV, because the quality (musicality) of the sub will play a huge role. I just find that I am a lot happier letting the mains play as much of the bass as possible due to the quality of my sub.
Having said all that, I will be interested to hear others suggestions on a good (musical) sub for this type of arrangement, as my sub is by far the weakest factor in my system (despite the fact that I have integrated it as best I can).
One other thing to try. If your sub is ported, stick a pair of socks in the port and see if you like it better. It made a world of difference on mine.
I might even try reverse engineering the existing sub. Replace the driver and optimize damping, bracing, ports, etc.
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When you say line level, do you mean speaker level ins and outs?
The fixed XO point is determined by the impedance of the driver in and around the intended XO point. They are likely 150µfd caps in the plate amp which are intended for an 8Ω load. What are your drivers?
I think if you want to integrate your sub to the FH3's you will want to lower the sub to a low pass of ±50Hz and do it via the line level ins. Don't XO the FH3's, run them straight from your SET amp.
I'd cut everything below ~80Hz, and use a subwoofer (or more than one, as space/budget allows) to cover below 80Hz.
Make sure its a fairly steep crossover: the FR drivers are prevented from over-exerting themselves, and the woofer is prevented from playing frequencies that might allow you to hear where it is in the room*.
FH3s, while doing a very good impression of bass, aren't the same as the real thing. For the real thing, a much bigger driver is needed.
Chris
*the job of a subwoofer is simple: be there only when required. It should not be noticable in any way, until you switch it off, and you're suddenly missing an octave or so at the bottom end.
Make sure its a fairly steep crossover: the FR drivers are prevented from over-exerting themselves, and the woofer is prevented from playing frequencies that might allow you to hear where it is in the room*.
FH3s, while doing a very good impression of bass, aren't the same as the real thing. For the real thing, a much bigger driver is needed.
Chris
*the job of a subwoofer is simple: be there only when required. It should not be noticable in any way, until you switch it off, and you're suddenly missing an octave or so at the bottom end.
That's the way it plays out at my house, for sure, except I feed the FR drivers the full spectrum because I am careful with the volume knob. I don't baby it, but I don't get stupid, either. Also, my target crossover is even lower, because I love tightness and "speed" of the middle and upper bass from the FRs.
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Two problems I can see:
1 - First order xover at 125 Hz would let the 'sub' play up pretty high, high enough to mess up the lower range of the FH. Steeper slopes and a lower xover point are probably in order.
2 - A single sub in a boxy room is likely to excite some pretty strong room modes. The first order modes would be at 33, 47 and 70 Hz. Lumpy bass probably won't integrate well with the fast, tight, lean sound of the FH's. I know any box sub I have tried has sucked in my 14 x 11 x 8 den. The 40 Hz (14 foot long dimension) room mode swamps everything.
What to do? Two approaches that have some possibility of success are either using at least three subs carefully placed around the room to even out the total response, or to go to dipole 'subs', say, a pair of Eminence Alpha 15's in H-frames with a good separate active xover. Lots has been written about each approach around here, do some searching.
Bill
1 - First order xover at 125 Hz would let the 'sub' play up pretty high, high enough to mess up the lower range of the FH. Steeper slopes and a lower xover point are probably in order.
2 - A single sub in a boxy room is likely to excite some pretty strong room modes. The first order modes would be at 33, 47 and 70 Hz. Lumpy bass probably won't integrate well with the fast, tight, lean sound of the FH's. I know any box sub I have tried has sucked in my 14 x 11 x 8 den. The 40 Hz (14 foot long dimension) room mode swamps everything.
What to do? Two approaches that have some possibility of success are either using at least three subs carefully placed around the room to even out the total response, or to go to dipole 'subs', say, a pair of Eminence Alpha 15's in H-frames with a good separate active xover. Lots has been written about each approach around here, do some searching.
Bill
Woofer with FH3 should probably not come in any higher than 80 Hz and it needs to be extended on the top (typically subwoofer probably won't cut it). If you XO that high you'll need a HP on the FH3 -- i suggest a single cap in front of the FH3 amp.
Easier, would be to use the sub "REL-style", dial it up to the bottom of the FH3 response.
dave
Easier, would be to use the sub "REL-style", dial it up to the bottom of the FH3 response.
dave
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