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The Othorn tapped horn
The Othorn tapped horn
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Old 7th July 2018, 08:49 AM   #451
chris661 is offline chris661  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexlel View Post
Thanks for your time guys, I'm a beginner in this part of the audio world, any advice is welcome.
Alexandre.
I'd seriously consider getting one good driver rather than two okay ones.

The top-end 21"s will move more air than a pair of the 18"s you're looking at, and then you only have to move one cabinet instead of two.

Chris
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Old 7th July 2018, 10:45 AM   #452
Alexlel is offline Alexlel  France
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Thanks for your answer, I'm pretty sure that 1*21" Othorn would be a better optimization than 2*18" but I plan to use them as a part of a soundsystem.

A solo cab wouldn't fit in, so for now, as I need 2 but my budget can't follow up, I plan to get 2*18" to later upgrade them with 21" and a better amplifier !

And if any accident occur during a party, I prefer to damage an okay driver than a top-end one ahah.

Alexandre.
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Old 9th July 2018, 11:11 AM   #453
epa is offline epa  Netherlands
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Originally Posted by chris661 View Post

Chris



Click the image to open in full size.



here is a comparison 2tbw vs1 sw154 both @x-var.

2tbw can take 3000watts aes vs 21sw 2000 wats aes

drawback,you have 2 cabs to haul instead of one,and you need more power for 2 18's
i would sugest an amp capable of 2x3000 watts4ohm for the 2
or 1x4000 watts 4ohm for the single.imho
__________________
one good thing about music ,when it hit you feel no pain.
so hit me with music
. hr driver db
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Old 9th July 2018, 01:12 PM   #454
Alexlel is offline Alexlel  France
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Originally Posted by epa View Post
Click the image to open in full size.



here is a comparison 2tbw vs1 sw154 both @x-var.

2tbw can take 3000watts aes vs 21sw 2000 wats aes

drawback,you have 2 cabs to haul instead of one,and you need more power for 2 18's
i would sugest an amp capable of 2x3000 watts4ohm for the 2
or 1x4000 watts 4ohm for the single.imho
Thanks for this, hope it can help others !

But as I said, I'll be doing it step by step

So for the beginning, I would prefer to get a budget amp (Proline 3000 fit perfectly).
The TBW needs too much power, I will not be able to run them correctly, it would be a waste.

So I'm looking after the B&C 18NW100.

Ricci said it would do the job at the very beginning of the Othorn but it looks like nobody tried it or shared their experiences.

But if the speaker does his job correctly, it would be perfect for a budget Othorn !
It doesn't require a lot of power and cost less than 300.

------------STEP 1-------------

Does the B&C 18NW100 fits in the Othorn ?

I can't do the sim myself because it's like black magic for me right now, I don't have enough knowledge to visualize the datas and their effects.

If someone could do the sim or even better, tried the experience and can share his results, it would be perfect !

------------STEP 2-------------

If the B&C 18NW100 do his job :

The 18NW1000 needs 1200W AES / 2400W program.
The Proline 3000 does 2*1500W@4ohm and 1*3600W@4ohm bridge (and even a bit more considering some measurements).

I read that it handle quite easily the 4ohm bridge (not even getting warm but if someone else can attest, I would be grateful).

What would be the most reliable option :

- Getting 2x18NW100 version 4ohm and running them on each side at 4ohm ? (1500W/speaker)
OR
- Getting 2x18NW100 version 8ohm and running them in parallel at 4ohm bridge ?
(1800W/speaker)

------------STEP 3-------------

We could get 2 Othorn cabs for ~600 of speakers and a 450 amplifier (bargain price)

Thanks for reading, hope someone can help me in my quest ahah !

I really hope I'm not saying something totally crazy.
Even if it's not the most optimized thing to do, it's actually what would fit my needs.
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Old 9th July 2018, 01:52 PM   #455
epa is offline epa  Netherlands
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here is the sim of one 18nw100 4r @x-var
Click the image to open in full size.
i would go fro the 4 ohm version.
then later you could buy an extra amp,and again later make some more othorns,and so on.



mind you that the efficiency of a scoop is much higher in comparison to the othorn.
__________________
one good thing about music ,when it hit you feel no pain.
so hit me with music
. hr driver db

Last edited by epa; 9th July 2018 at 01:54 PM.
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Old 9th July 2018, 03:57 PM   #456
Alexlel is offline Alexlel  France
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Alright !

Thanks, that seems quite nice actually, will give it a try.
I still have months to think about it !

If someone else have an opinion, I would love to hear it.
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Old 12th July 2018, 08:06 AM   #457
Alexlel is offline Alexlel  France
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So I took 2 days to learn a bit about Hornresp instead of asking for sims ahah.
I did a lot of sims (all at 2*Pi) and ended up with 1 driver that could in theory fit in.

----- B&C 18NW100-4ohm

First, I measured the 18NW100-4ohm to complete Epa's datas.

Some specs :

- 273
- 1200W A.E.S / 2400W Program
- Xmax : 9mm / Xlim : 11mm

The first sim I did was to reach Xmax, it just needed 400W to reach it with a SPL output of 122dB@30Hz.

Click the image to open in full size.Click the image to open in full size.

The second was to reach Xlim, it needed 600W and the SPL output was 123,5dB@30Hz.

Click the image to open in full size.Click the image to open in full size.

Except its low price, you can't feed it with more than 600W without damages, quite pointless to put this in.

----- FaitalPRO 18HP1030-4ohm

Then enter the other driver, the FaitalPRO 18HP1030-4ohm :

Some specs :

- 263
- 1200W A.E.S / 2400W Program
- XMax : 12,45mm / Xlim : 23,1mm

The first sim I did was to reach Xmax, it needed 600W to reach it with a SPL output of 125dB@30Hz.

Click the image to open in full size.Click the image to open in full size.

The second was with its A.E.S power, at 1200W it was perfectly between the Xmax and the Xlim with a SPL output of 128dB@30Hz

Click the image to open in full size.Click the image to open in full size.

The third was to reach Xlim, it needed 2000W and the SPL output was 130dB@30Hz.

Click the image to open in full size.Click the image to open in full size.

----- CONCLUSION

For a bit less than half the price of a 21SW152-4ohm (650) and half the amp power, you can get an honorable SPL output.

With 2 cabs (close to the price of 1cab loaded with the 21SW152-4ohm), if the distortion at 1200W is still reasonable you can get 135dB@30Hz out of these.

Is there something I don't see that would ruin my idea ?
I thought of thermal handling but after some reading it looks like it should handle it quite well.

It would be the perfect driver for what I'm looking for, a budget alternative which could be easily powered by a Proline 3000 !
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Old 12th July 2018, 08:43 PM   #458
epa is offline epa  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexlel View Post
S

Is there something I don't see that would ruin my idea ?
yes
first of you mistake the x-var(nowadays called max excursion )for x-limmit.
tho x-limmit is not stated in the specs for the 18nw 100 ,i'm sure it is at least the same or more as the fatial pro.
2nd you are not playng sine waves,but music.
the power figures are somewat differend for music.


ive bild quite a few th's for pro audio use,and i have never had a failure due to over excursion,only a few cooked coils(whe use primerely eightensound drivers)
__________________
one good thing about music ,when it hit you feel no pain.
so hit me with music
. hr driver db
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Old 12th July 2018, 09:43 PM   #459
Alexlel is offline Alexlel  France
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Originally Posted by epa View Post
yes
first of you mistake the x-var(nowadays called max excursion )for x-limmit.
tho x-limmit is not stated in the specs for the 18nw 100 ,i'm sure it is at least the same or more as the fatial pro.
2nd you are not playng sine waves,but music.
the power figures are somewat differend for music.


ive bild quite a few th's for pro audio use,and i have never had a failure due to over excursion,only a few cooked coils(whe use primerely eightensound drivers)

Ahah I had a doubt about this, it was so low and not writted as Xlim, was quite strange but I'm fixed now.

But even if the 18NW100 has a a Xlim close to 20mm, it will be at Xmax before the FaitalPRO, right ?
And then should come distorsion.

Considering the sims and your experience, would you agree that the 18HP1030 looks better than the 18NW100 ? Even if you're playing music which will induce peak of power and things.

Like if we put the driver in the Othorn, could it be pushed at 600W or even 1200W without getting destroyed ?
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Old 13th July 2018, 08:55 PM   #460
Djim is offline Djim  Netherlands
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The published Xmax for both drivers is theoretically at 70% of its motor power. Meaning that it will be very doubtful if the published Xmax can be reached with a LF-driver of medium strength when loaded in a difficult load, like a tapped horn.
Instead calculate Xmax in a conventional way with: (winding depth minus magnetic depth) * 0.5
For the 18NW100 (4Ohm) that is: (25 - 12) * 0.5 = 6.5 mm
And for the FaitalPro 18HP1030 it comes down to: (28.9 – 12) * 0.5 = 8.45 mm

But you also need sufficient motor power to move that cone with a difficult load, like a tapped horn.
Rme = Electromagnetic damping [in N*s/m] is often used for indicating motor power.
Rme can be calculated with (BL*BL)/Re for unloaded and (BL*BL)/Zmin for a loaded driver (includes motor losses).

For the 18HP1030 (4Ohm) unloaded -> (21.7 * 21.7) / 2.9 = 162.38 N*s/m
For an 18HP1030 (4Ohm) loaded it results in (21.7 * 21.7) / 3.9 = 120.74 N*s/m
(a drop of 25.6% in motor power when loaded)

An 18NW100 (4Ohm) unloaded -> (24.7 * 24.7) / 3.7 = 164.89 N*s/m
18NW100 (4Ohm) loaded -> (24.7 * 24.7) / 4.5 = 135.58 N*s/m
(a drop of 18.6% in motor power when loaded)

For reference an 18SW115 (4Ohm) unloaded -> 205.95 N*s/m
18SW115 (4Ohm) loaded-> 165.77 N*s/m
(a drop of 19.5% in motor power when loaded)

In other words, the 18HP1030 has more Xmax but has a weaker motor compared to the 18NW100. I wouldn't be so sure if the 18HP1030 is a good choice for a difficult load like the Othorn…

Last edited by Djim; 13th July 2018 at 08:59 PM.
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