My dumb *** decided to do a quick test in my living room. I put about 300-400 watts into the cabinet and had stuff in the kitchen rattling. Lol. No way to bring it up in volume without something in the house rattling. I think the cabinet is solid. The other issue I had was the tops trying to walk off the sub. It almost happened but my friend grabbed the cabinet just in time. The JBL AM series cabinets have no rubber feet, only metal screws sticking out so no grip. I'm gonna try either rubber feet or a rubber mat. The stack height is right at 7' tall, so I think it will work for some small clubs as is. I thought about mounting the top cabs on poles attached to the sub, but Art warns against it and it would be a little difficult to get both cabinets on poles and still be close together or allow for splay. I'll have to do a little research on the latter.
More testing tomorrow outside my house, but so far so good.
I think I settled on 5ms delay on the tops and the top cabinets are set back so that the speakers are roughly on top of the sub speaker.
More testing tomorrow outside my house, but so far so good.
I think I settled on 5ms delay on the tops and the top cabinets are set back so that the speakers are roughly on top of the sub speaker.
I advised to not use the Keystone sub with a pole mounted speaker above unless attached to a plinth (platform) with a ratchet strap.
Rubber feet still "walk", unless the top cabinet(s) feet fit securely into receiver holes on the sub they also should be ratchet strapped to the sub to avoid movement.
7' tall for the top cabinet puts their mid/high at standing head height, which will tend to deafen those in front, attenuating the mid/highs for those that are not.
Art
what's a good height for top cabinets?
I'm about to test outside with a thick rubber mat on top of the sub to see if that will help the walking. if not. I will be making a notch for the top cabs rubber feet to fit in. how deep should the notches be?
would it be ok to use a board between the sub and tops with rails on either side to keep both cabs in place? thinking maybe a board a little wider than the sub with 3/4" edge around it to keep it fitted to the sub on all sides, then place the tops on the board and glue in the same type of edge that goes around the tops keeping them from going in any direction. probably over thinking it and should just notch for runner feet.
I'm about to test outside with a thick rubber mat on top of the sub to see if that will help the walking. if not. I will be making a notch for the top cabs rubber feet to fit in. how deep should the notches be?
would it be ok to use a board between the sub and tops with rails on either side to keep both cabs in place? thinking maybe a board a little wider than the sub with 3/4" edge around it to keep it fitted to the sub on all sides, then place the tops on the board and glue in the same type of edge that goes around the tops keeping them from going in any direction. probably over thinking it and should just notch for runner feet.
1) About 1/3 the distance to the farthest audience position would be a good height. Get them up as high as possible, point them down at the audience.
2) It would slow the walking speed.
3) The divots should be near the compressed depth of the feet.
4) Yes, and you could also put ratchet strap alignment holes or depressions in it.
Outside testing complete. Wow does this sub kick! Driverack did it's auto eq thing and the resulting eq curve had minimal eq applied. And all I had was one side of a behringer inuke3000 powering it. Right below amp clipping the speaker was barely moving. I think I need a bigger amp!
I bought a $25 workout mat from home Depot which I cut to place on top the sub. The mat is very thick and rough actually. I can't imagine rubbing any body part on this without losing skin. I played music at high volume for about an hour and the tops never moved.
For the way other sound men like to eq their system I would say I need to double the subs per side, or try more power. Personally, I like to run a system fairly flat.
I bought a $25 workout mat from home Depot which I cut to place on top the sub. The mat is very thick and rough actually. I can't imagine rubbing any body part on this without losing skin. I played music at high volume for about an hour and the tops never moved.
For the way other sound men like to eq their system I would say I need to double the subs per side, or try more power. Personally, I like to run a system fairly flat.
A 6dB power increase in doubles excursion, which with asymmetrical waveforms (like kick drum..) may increase "shake" to the point where a mat may not stop the top cabinet movement.
The 6dB increase in power the NU3000 will deliver bridged mono is about equal to running a pair of subs at 1/4 the power.
With 3000 watts peak power, a single BC18TBW100-4 Keystone should have similar output to a pair of front loaded 12" JBL AM4212/85 (each driven with 800 watts peak) from 70-100 Hz, so if you like flat dynamic response capability, you should be good to go after adding a second bridged NU3000.
If you want to add a 6dB low frequency "haystack" below 100 Hz, at full output of the tops, double your subs and amplifiers
Art
For sure I'm going to add another amp for my other sub that I'm currently building. It's very possibly that I built 2 more cabs in the future. Gonna see what a pair will do first. I tend to run a fairly compressed mix compared to other sound men. I have a studio background so that's the sound I shoot for. I've been told that my live mixes sound like a CD, so when I'm forced to mix on bass heavy systems I end up cutting a lot of bottom out of everything.
All done with the second box and I have the other 3000 watt amp in stock. My first gig with it will be outdoors at a festival where they predict 800-1000 people watching. so i have a question:
If I'm using the Keystone subs plus some standard 2-18" subs how much delay should i use on the direct radiating subs?
I'm acquiring 2 carvin trx 2-18" subs that really put out a lot of bass, so i think that between those and the keystones i should be good to go.
If I'm using the Keystone subs plus some standard 2-18" subs how much delay should i use on the direct radiating subs?
I'm acquiring 2 carvin trx 2-18" subs that really put out a lot of bass, so i think that between those and the keystones i should be good to go.
Using IIR filters and delay, you won't be able to phase/time align between the two types of subs over their entire pass band (30 to around 80-100Hz) regardless of how the BR subs are delayed, but as a rough guestimate, 5 to 9ms should get the upper phase response close.
I've got a drive rack pa 2 and a behringer x32 mixer to work with and that's about it.
The gig is outdoors on a the back of a 18 wheeler truck bed. My first thought was to put both keystones laying down on the ground in front of the trailer and put the other subs and top cabinets on either side of the stage. I was hoping the distance would help with the delay issues.
I'm gonna have to take this stuff outside this week and test it. Decisions will be made. I'll either be building 2 more keystones or building another box for those speakers. Can't have a total mismatch of pa. I didn't plan on having these other speakers but it worked out good on this trade I'm doing. I'll end up giving up my JBL tops to get 6 carvin tcs210's and 2 carvin trx3212 subs with more power amps. Of course I'm gonna have to fly my tops and pay for all labor and materials to make it happen.
The gig is outdoors on a the back of a 18 wheeler truck bed. My first thought was to put both keystones laying down on the ground in front of the trailer and put the other subs and top cabinets on either side of the stage. I was hoping the distance would help with the delay issues.
I'm gonna have to take this stuff outside this week and test it. Decisions will be made. I'll either be building 2 more keystones or building another box for those speakers. Can't have a total mismatch of pa. I didn't plan on having these other speakers but it worked out good on this trade I'm doing. I'll end up giving up my JBL tops to get 6 carvin tcs210's and 2 carvin trx3212 subs with more power amps. Of course I'm gonna have to fly my tops and pay for all labor and materials to make it happen.
The DSL TH118XL impedance/excursion minimas are about 4Hz lower than the Keystone, it appears to have around 3-4dB more output at 30 Hz, though similar above.
After much wailing and gnashing of teeth, I have of late been thinking that my sensitivity rating for the Keystone is understated by 3 to 6dB.
Couldn't find any listing for dual 18" Carvin "trx3212" subs.
The Carvin dual 18" TRx2218B use 800w 5.5mm Xmax drivers.
The Carvin dual 18" TRx3218 spec sheet lists 1000w 9.75mm Xmax drivers.
I'd expect either of those of those dual 18" subs to have similar sensitivity as your BC 18TBW100-4 loaded Keystones.
The 18TBW100 has 12mm Xmax (14mm Xvar) so should be capable of more clean LF output than a pair of TRx2218B. One Keystone/two TRx2218B.
If you get the TRx3218, the Keystone should still have a bit more output, probably between a 2/2.4 to 2/3 ratio, two Keystone/three TRx3218.
To avoid too much bass center stage, probably better to put the subs with less output there.
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