Keystone Sub Using 18, 15, & 12 Inch Speakers

Hi!

Building continues...
Put casters on the back to help move/transport this big box.

http://img4.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/15300/153009848ceca37f36be0afe13d089a4a95f6822.jpg

the drivers arrived

http://img2.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/15300/153009826d0ddb50ea4096012ea776355a2d6562.jpg

http://www.eighteensound.com/index.aspx?mainMenu=view_product&pid=288

Now need longer screws to fix the 18 Sound 18NLW9600 to the t-nuts (height of thedriver 2.3cm + wood/t-nuts 2.2cm).
The driver back is nearly in touch with the slot/ and front port...

http://img3.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/15301/15301003f67bc4a8821f20aea19c75e86fff2b43.jpg

Regards,
 
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Hi!
Today, after finally putting things toghether, fixing driver and front panel, and with a friends help, loaning his warehouse, Proel desk, crossprocessor(192KHz), PSL 9400 amplifier, 30A energy, 220V, we made some indoor tests (it’s a big factory building, like a Gym). Shorter distance to a wall was around 8m.
To measure I have the Berry DSPRTA 8024, and ECM8000 mic, and a decibelimiter with peak holder C weighted, at high position, taking measurements at 2m for curves, and at 2 and 1 m for peak dBs.
PSL 9400
The 18Sound 18NLW9600 8ohms is a Power angry driver (like B&C 18SW115 8ohms owned by my friend that stated it).
The amplifier can deliver about 2110wrms at 8 ohms loading with clipping limit at +4dBs.
We used playback of pink noise and music, allways flat.
We played the signal up to when the clip limit led barely flashes, returning a bit the potenciometer; the driver hardly moves a cm (0.5 ~ 0.5cm) with pink noise and like this with music.
The sound is like hi-fi and taste to our ears is very good.
See the not so good pictures I take from the RTA:
20 ~ 130 Hz LR24 pink noise
http://img6.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/15306/15306776513d116a397d5cc8976c369b0e6ea6ec.jpg
20 ~ 200Hz LR24
http://img7.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/15306/15306787fff07002e9eaae89f0a7fac3e6408878.jpg
and were we agreed was a good band to use it 25 ~ 96Hz LR24
http://img2.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/15306/153068023934a91cd687db289be6dff7e345f08c.jpg
As stated above the sound is like hi-fi, but the SPL is about dissapointed for this kind of power applied, when 118,9dBs,despite raising income till clip limit flashes was what we read as peak (I’m used to hear hog scoop with 18LW1400 with up to 600Wrms applied, with a similar good sound, but with higher SPL).
As stated before, local dealer makes an offer of 4 drivers, at a reasonable price and so I invested minus than 2 sheets of 19mm plywood…
So I’m calculating if it’s a good buy, as I need a big amp to make the drivers sing, when my 3000wrms 4ohms bridged amps are insufficient.

Regards,
 
Last edited:
Hi!
Today, after finally putting things toghether, fixing driver and front panel, and with a friends help, loaning his warehouse, Proel desk, crossprocessor(192KHz), PSL 9400 amplifier, 30A energy, 220V, we made some indoor tests (it’s a big factory building, like a Gym). Shorter distance to a wall was around 8m.
To measure I have the Berry DSPRTA 8024, and ECM8000 mic, and a decibelimiter with peak holder C weighted, at high position, taking measurements at 2m for curves, and at 2 and 1 m for peak dBs.
PSL 9400
The 18Sound 18NLW9600 8ohms is a Power angry driver (like B&C 18SW115 8ohms owned by my friend that stated it).
The amplifier can deliver about 2110wrms at 8 ohms loading with clipping limit at +4dBs.
We used playback of pink noise and music, allways flat.
We played the signal up to when the clip limit led barely flashes, returning a bit the potenciometer; the driver hardly moves a cm (0.5 ~ 0.5cm) with pink noise and like this with music.
The sound is like hi-fi and taste to our ears is very good.
See the not so good pictures I take from the RTA:
20 ~ 130 Hz LR24 pink noise
http://img6.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/15306/15306776513d116a397d5cc8976c369b0e6ea6ec.jpg
20 ~ 200Hz LR24
http://img7.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/15306/15306787fff07002e9eaae89f0a7fac3e6408878.jpg
and were we agreed was a good band to use it 25 ~ 96Hz LR24
http://img2.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/15306/153068023934a91cd687db289be6dff7e345f08c.jpg
As stated above the sound is like hi-fi, but the SPL is about dissapointed for this kind of power applied, when 118,9dBs,despite raising income till clip limit flashes was what we read as peak (I’m used to hear hog scoop with 18LW1400 with up to 600Wrms applied, with a similar good sound, but with higher SPL).
As stated before, local dealer makes an offer of 4 drivers, at a reasonable price and so I invested minus than 2 sheets of 19mm plywood…
So I’m calculating if it’s a good buy, as I need a big amp to make the drivers sing, when my 3000wrms 4ohms bridged amps are insufficient.

Regards,
Pasc,
Interesting to hear your report!

If the 18Sound 18NLW9600 cone is only moving 10 MM peak to peak, it is only being tickled, Xmax is around 15mm, which is 30mm peak to peak.
Takes about 6 dB increase in level to double excursion.

The amp you are using may not be “delivering the goods”, low frequency energy may be causing current limiting or something. Did you try using a 25-30 Hz HPF ?

What is the size of the ”hog scoop”?

How much louder is the hog scoop than the Keystone with the same voltage applied?

Art
 
What is the size of the ”hog scoop”?

How much louder is the hog scoop than the Keystone with the same voltage applied?

Art

Here you go!

Regards, Ben

The hog scoop is 950mm x 986mm x 636mm

The hornresp numbers:
s1=750
con=112.8
s2=1062
con=42
s3=1770
con=51
s4=2544
con=47
s5=5700
vrc=0
lrc=0
fr=0
tal=0
vtc=49456
atc=86
 
scoops are verry efficient,and big.
i found an old comparison i made a while ago,i think it was with gaus 18" driver.
gaus.jpg


hog scoop
TPJ-HOG-Scoop.jpg
 
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And...

Is it a fair comparison - is this a particularly good tapped horn design?
It seems less capable than many 15" designs

Drivers are always better suited for one enclosure type than another... which of course means a fair test is hardly possible, unless we look at a variety of drivers and consider the average difference between efficiency and exztension in various enclosures.

There might be some that work worse in the hog scoop, but better in a tapped horn than the above example.

Regards, Ben
 
Other drivers for Keystone

Has anyone looked at the Fi BTL-N218 in the Keystone?

http://tinyurl.com/cfr3zk9
BTL N2 SERIES

Most "car audio" drivers are overpriced under-engineered rubbish but this might work quite well if the T-S parameters are correct. The coil is only 3" but it's very tall (~72mm?) in a very deep gap (~32mm?) so the 2000Wrms power handling should be realistic, especially given the big heatsink, and the total flux from two big slab neo magnets means BL/sqrt(Re) is higher than even the NLW9600.

It certainly won't run out or travel with any sensible size amp given that Xmax=28mm...

(though I'm not convinced that the quoted BL and efficiency are with the long-coil option)
 
Hi!

Firstly, we like the sound that comes out of the Keystone very much.

The cone control despite power applied is a good surprise as all THs always suffer from this enemy at the limits, needing a more compression at the throat and only a bit of drivers are adequate; that's what I notice making several boxes for 12, 15 and now 18 drivers.
THs sound is ready, needing no eq, but SPL at the limit suffer from power compression.

But in Brazil, without the limits of North America, and Europe limits (to 105dBs at audience, if I'm not wrong), the desk operators go to numbers like 120/130dBs peaks at the mixing house, 30, 40, 50 m from PA (they maybe are dumb or have severe audition problems), same at delaying beside 120dBs at stage, same with musicians in great number...

The energy was adequate.
Certainly not the best one, Machine amp is a Class AB+H - 2 ohms; refer complete pdf stored at Brazilian professional sound forum, Audiolist typing code which appears down/middle showing complete parts.

Machine amplificadores PSL 6400 7400 9400 - [Audio List]

Not the better but I think this amp has balls to keep old school numbers, not this thing os 33ms (to me a fraction of a second = peak power, like which the one's I call PMPO things, when you put a shower resistance in barrel full of water and play a senoid , still round at oscilloscope, thru it.
Regards,
 
Hi Art!
The work continues.
Today I was taking another measurements of TH18, also loaded with the 18Sound 18NLW9600, at same place we tested the Keystone, same equipment,…
And than Pequeno has picked up what’s wrong.
The decibelimeter 9V battery, bought at some weeks ago, Rayovac alkaline has only 7.5V at the multimeter.
Measured the TH18 Xoc1 style and it stops at 117dBs using similar power as input.
Changed the drained battery for one with full 9V and goes to 126.2 peak holder from 38 ~ 97Hz band, also with very good hi-fi sound, and a bit better defined says my friend who also plays bass guitar.
The cone control IMO, wasn’t as good as in the Keystone, which sound I preferred, maybe because I’ve owned a DJ PA in past, where lows are more present than at live music that my friend is more used to.
http://img2.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/15342/153429823ecaf2e3a1ceddb1c30c53c941e5ee24.jpg
http://img1.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/15343/1534303134b74bd2481a44dd4c596a4852bd39e8.jpg
As it shows a # of less 9.9dBs before changing the battery, adding this to 118.9 red when measured Keystone TH the correct number will be around 128.8dBs, which is a lot thru the band played and with excellent cone control for a TH, only owned by the TH12 loaded with B&C 12PS100 up to date tests.

Sorry for inconvenience.
Regards,
 
Hi Art!

As it shows a # of less 9.9dBs before changing the battery, adding this to 118.9 red when measured Keystone TH the correct number will be around 128.8dBs, which is a lot thru the band played and with excellent cone control for a TH, only owned by the TH12 loaded with B&C 12PS100 up to date tests.

Sorry for inconvenience.
Regards,
That seems more in line with my outdoor measurements, a pair of Keystones can do around 105 dB at 32 meters each powered by a Crest CA-9.
Thanks for the update, what distance was the measurement done at?

Art
 
Need Help!

Hey!
I have a 8" 50W woofer with 8ohm impedance n i've build a box with 17.6" height, 13.5" width and 13" base. I used chipboard of 2cm thickness. I wanna know the port size. Currently I've made a port of 1" height and 1.2" gap from the back. It's not L port just one piece of 10.7" x 11.7". I'm not satisfied with it coz it doesn't sounds good n no air comes out either but when i remove the tweeter, that hole of 2.5" diameter act as a good port but i dnt want round port i want square port as i build.
If sm1 can help me with this plz pvt me or reply here coz im new to this site n dnt know around.
Plz I really need help!

Peace!
 
Hi Art!

Decibel meter at 100cm from the mouth on the ground(concrete) over a carpet.
Comparing with TH18 Xoc1 style, cone control is impressive.

Regards,

Yes, there is one cone control detail employed in the DSL TH-118 missing from the Xoc1 TH18.

I found it interesting how many have tried additional restriction in front of the cones on TH to control excursion, I tried that on the Keystone and found less output and no better cone control.

It would be interesting to compare the two with sine waves and measure the excursion and compare those figures to mine loaded with the BC18SW115-4.
I suspect the 18Sound 18NLW9600 suspension has a bit less excursion control down low.

Have you used the Keystones on any shows yet?

Art
 
Hi Art!

Made only one Keystone and one TH18 Xoc1 till now to calm down my curiosity...
Will not use them these way. My time carrying two times a day a cargo of 12 modified Whorns, etc, etc, etc to complete PA is gone...

The Keystone (very good speaker) could be the substitute of my HT Subwoofer, where 4 modified Edgar showhorns corner loaded with 15", playing only 32W (the four sumed at maximum 32W), accompaining my TL three way LA 8x6", 8xconical paper cone tweeters, and 2 Selenium (good times when they make better loudspeakers) TSA10 Alnico Tweeters good till 22Khz (EV style horns loaded on Klipsh), each side as front mains in my dedicated Sound/Video room...
Will compare in future.

But returning to the subject reversing 105dBs at 32M.

Two speakers drived by CA-9 bridged (2000W at 4 ohms load) without losses should give a sensivity of around 96.1dBs of each one.

Let's see:
1800W = 137; 900W = 134; 450 = 131; ... ; 1,76W = 107; 0,88W 104dBs (could find Re of 4 ohm version). 1W ~ 104.55dBs

Now if we compare these numbers like with 137dBs claims (at AES Pe) we notice a difference of 104.55 from 96.1 = + 8.45dBs;

+8.45dBs implies in augment Pe by 7W to equal 1W or SEVEN times more power at Pe limit of 1800W = 12,600W to equal the claimed AES...

Worked for some years with automotive SPL championship and think that know something about what comes out in dB when power increases.

So my blablabla here is only valid if my homework is correct and due I'm getting older.
Also admiring the collaborative work that goes thru here at DIY.
Thanks for all who are sharing their findings.

Regards,