I have not used them with the horns rotated. I forgot I could do that.
I have used them 2 per side a couple times to cover a wide area with good results. The boxes are well behaved and smooth response so the combing is minimal.
If you get a chance to hear them I think you will not be disappointed.
Happy new years all! Have been lurking on this thread for months, am finally making my first post. I am getting my ducks in a row and gearing up for building two Keystones loaded with the BC SW115 - most likely 4ohm cabinets.
I am a EDM DJ and am building these to rock warehouse parties. I am starting off with two, which I plan to deploy at the center of the stage. Eventually I would like four
I already have a pair of Carvin 1584 three way speakers (15, 8 mid, and large front loaded horn tweeter). I am bi-amplifying them with two QSC Gx5's and am happy for now. Just picked up a QSC RMX 2450 and I like it so far too for powering all my monitors. I am using a DBX Driverack VENU360 as well.
I am buying my amplifiers and setting up my rack before building the subs and my plan as of now is to use two bridged RMX2450s at 4 ohms. I can get these second hand for good deals often and getting four over time for around $1000 I see very feasible. 2400 watts at 4ohms per sub should leave me with alot of headroom? I am worried, though, that the RMX amplifiers wont give me the best thump for my budget. My music needs alot of power due to its nature (house music + breakbeats). I understand I would need three dedicated outlets for my rack then? (1 per bridged rmx, 1 for my power conditioner, driverack, and two gx5 amplifiers).
Should I bother with the RMX amplifiers for this project or pick up some Crest CA9s or something else??? Weight does not matter to me - I want the best performance. a CA9 runs about $400 each for a good deal, whereas the RMX2450 is $250 all day. A PLX3602 is around $600 used for a good deal and I hear that these dont perform as good on sub duty. An old Macrotech would be in budget too, I dont much about these yet.
I heard two Crest CA9s in action last night and am pretty convinced... what have you guys had great luck with for that beastly bottom end? cheers!
I am a EDM DJ and am building these to rock warehouse parties. I am starting off with two, which I plan to deploy at the center of the stage. Eventually I would like four
I already have a pair of Carvin 1584 three way speakers (15, 8 mid, and large front loaded horn tweeter). I am bi-amplifying them with two QSC Gx5's and am happy for now. Just picked up a QSC RMX 2450 and I like it so far too for powering all my monitors. I am using a DBX Driverack VENU360 as well.
I am buying my amplifiers and setting up my rack before building the subs and my plan as of now is to use two bridged RMX2450s at 4 ohms. I can get these second hand for good deals often and getting four over time for around $1000 I see very feasible. 2400 watts at 4ohms per sub should leave me with alot of headroom? I am worried, though, that the RMX amplifiers wont give me the best thump for my budget. My music needs alot of power due to its nature (house music + breakbeats). I understand I would need three dedicated outlets for my rack then? (1 per bridged rmx, 1 for my power conditioner, driverack, and two gx5 amplifiers).
Should I bother with the RMX amplifiers for this project or pick up some Crest CA9s or something else??? Weight does not matter to me - I want the best performance. a CA9 runs about $400 each for a good deal, whereas the RMX2450 is $250 all day. A PLX3602 is around $600 used for a good deal and I hear that these dont perform as good on sub duty. An old Macrotech would be in budget too, I dont much about these yet.
I heard two Crest CA9s in action last night and am pretty convinced... what have you guys had great luck with for that beastly bottom end? cheers!
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I've got 8 ohm models in mine. Expect them to drink more juice than you think.
I've got a amp that supposedly deliver 1400w @ 8 ohm and they ocassionally clip without me frying the drivers (yet). I've read from sales rep guy that as long as the magnet is below 100°C long term you are safe from VC overheating. Mine heats up considerably when limited to 95v but seem to hold up, I might settle for 87v I'm not sure yet.
Bridging to 4 ohm will require rock solid 2 ohm performance, I would probably go for crest ca9's but I don't know about rmx reliability(however I would not want to run 2 ohm if I could avoid it)
People seen very satisfied with their inuke6000 and the efficient about 1800w class D watts should move a lot of air with these cabs!
Find a amp that can run solid 65-70 volts all night long and you will shift some air I'm using mine for techno and they are really powerful and musical
I've got a amp that supposedly deliver 1400w @ 8 ohm and they ocassionally clip without me frying the drivers (yet). I've read from sales rep guy that as long as the magnet is below 100°C long term you are safe from VC overheating. Mine heats up considerably when limited to 95v but seem to hold up, I might settle for 87v I'm not sure yet.
Bridging to 4 ohm will require rock solid 2 ohm performance, I would probably go for crest ca9's but I don't know about rmx reliability(however I would not want to run 2 ohm if I could avoid it)
People seen very satisfied with their inuke6000 and the efficient about 1800w class D watts should move a lot of air with these cabs!
Find a amp that can run solid 65-70 volts all night long and you will shift some air
I'm using mine for techno and they are really powerful and musical
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Happy new years all! Have been lurking on this thread for months, am finally making my first post. I am getting my ducks in a row and gearing up for building two Keystones loaded with the BC SW115 - most likely 4ohm cabinets.
I am a EDM DJ and am building these to rock warehouse parties. I am starting off with two, which I plan to deploy at the center of the stage. Eventually I would like four
I already have a pair of Carvin 1584 three way speakers (15, 8 mid, and large front loaded horn tweeter). I am bi-amplifying them with two QSC Gx5's and am happy for now. Just picked up a QSC RMX 2450 and I like it so far too for powering all my monitors. I am using a DBX Driverack VENU360 as well.
I am buying my amplifiers and setting up my rack before building the subs and my plan as of now is to use two bridged RMX2450s at 4 ohms. I can get these second hand for good deals often and getting four over time for around $1000 I see very feasible. 2400 watts at 4ohms per sub should leave me with alot of headroom? I am worried, though, that the RMX amplifiers wont give me the best thump for my budget. My music needs alot of power due to its nature (house music + breakbeats). I understand I would need three dedicated outlets for my rack then? (1 per bridged rmx, 1 for my power conditioner, driverack, and two gx5 amplifiers).
Should I bother with the RMX amplifiers for this project or pick up some Crest CA9s or something else??? Weight does not matter to me - I want the best performance. a CA9 runs about $400 each for a good deal, whereas the RMX2450 is $250 all day. A PLX3602 is around $600 used for a good deal and I hear that these dont perform as good on sub duty. An old Macrotech would be in budget too, I dont much about these yet.
I heard two Crest CA9s in action last night and am pretty convinced... what have you guys had great luck with for that beastly bottom end? cheers!
I didn't read all of Osse's response, (sorry, a little tipsy!) but I can say from the experience of another EDM "Promoter" (term in quotes, because I don't consider being responsible for the entire event from production up to promotion as simply being "resigned" to the term "promoter", which tend to "imply" someone who is just that douche handing out fliers at a bar!)
that these ******* KICK for EDM.I've got 2 currently "in use" and am HOPING to have 2 more loaded for 2017, I used 8 OHM Drivers (as Osse said as well!) because they were "on sale" at Parts Express for a GOOD PRICE, and used SpeakerPower HT 4000 Amps on them.
All I can say is HOLY ****, they are everything I didn't realize I wanted/needed in a sub.
My woodworking guy put some "coffin bars" and casters that require "tilt back" until they engage to make the whole setup "easy enough for one old guy" to "throw around", and I didn't compromise on materials, (used straight up Baltic Birch, not bs MDF or Plywood) and was IMPRESSED with how incredible they sounded.
To this DAY!!!! I've gotten more "referrals" for folks who used to INSIST on PK Subs or GTFO, which is what has "allowed" me to "subsidize" construction of 2 more, and I THINK!!!! (if everything goes well!) I should have 6 (3 pairs!) by the end of the year for those "yuge shows".
IME, what made my "system" be the one they "come back for more" for was the combo of these KILLER subs and the SpeakerPower Subs.
In fact, Art, if you're out there, please email me at nepoisopen@gmail.com so I can PROPERLY give you some PayPal cash for the plans.
For someone who LOVES EDM and has been "promoting" EDM in this part of the US for 15 years, these have SURPASSED my expectations, and I know many would "criticize" me for my words, but I'll put these WELL DESIGNED!!!! Keystones toe to toe with PKs ANY DAY OF THE WEEK.
(To be transparent, what I've got going in my system is 2 Keystone Subs, powered with a SINGLE!!!! SpeakerPower HT4000, which was JUST UNDER!!!! $1k WITH SHIPPING!, and 2 Mackie SA1521 as the 'tops' crossed at 90 hz, and for those 'big *** shows', I use 2 OLD SCHOOL Mackie SR1530z's, crossed over the same way!!!!)
I can't GUSH ENOUGH to say how much lower end these have added, and really, what they've done, is allowed me to distinguish those in the "community" who have tracks that are MP3s where the cut off is 60 hz, and those who have the "real deal" tracks that dip into that 30 hz - range.
I'd EAGERLY encourage you, (if you're stateside!) to go with a SpeakerPower amp, and make those keystones POWERED.
Cheers.
Sorry for my "enthusiasm", little bit tipsy + some energy drink = extremely excited posting, but I literally am at least 60% sober, so understand that my words aren't just some "drunk rambling".
Thank you guys for the help!! Yes I am very excited too to add these to my arsenal. In my last post I confused myself.. but I think the budget plan for now for me is to get 8ohm cabinets, and run TWO RMX 2450s bridged at 8ohms at first... that is 1300 watts per sub RMS and that should be plenty to start with later on when I add two more I can run in parallel for the full power of the amp and still 1200watts a sub.
If you are using those Mackies then I know my Carvins are going to sound just as good these old things I grabbed for 100 because "one bass woofer was blown" ... nope the old guy just didnt know how to operate the bi-amp switch LOL!!! never going to consider 2way speakers again.
The CREST amps are still affordable... if these RMX2450s leave something to be desired I think I will try one out and A/B them. The crest is about 450 shipped not bad at all. Its hard to find good info on amplifiers it is just so subjective.
Any insight whether I should build the cabinets a little wider like others have? It extends the LF response correct? Id like to make my cabinets as efficient and sensitive as possible within reason.
later on when I add two more I can run in parallel for the full power of the amp and still 1200watts a sub. If you are using those Mackies then I know my Carvins are going to sound just as good
these old things I grabbed for 100 because "one bass woofer was blown" ... nope the old guy just didnt know how to operate the bi-amp switch LOL!!! never going to consider 2way speakers again.The CREST amps are still affordable... if these RMX2450s leave something to be desired I think I will try one out and A/B them. The crest is about 450 shipped not bad at all. Its hard to find good info on amplifiers it is just so subjective.
Any insight whether I should build the cabinets a little wider like others have? It extends the LF response correct? Id like to make my cabinets as efficient and sensitive as possible within reason.
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You will need 1300w rms and that won't be any headroom to speak of.
I would not recommend any modifications to the cab, Art already made several of them and ended up here probably for a reason, which is a very good compromise.
However he's designing a keystone which reaches below 30 hz with authority aswell, did not quite cope with irons law as good as the original one iirc from this thread but he might chime in on that one!(not sure it will be a public plan otoh)
Good luck making sawdust!
I would not recommend any modifications to the cab, Art already made several of them and ended up here probably for a reason, which is a very good compromise.
However he's designing a keystone which reaches below 30 hz with authority aswell, did not quite cope with irons law as good as the original one iirc from this thread but he might chime in on that one!(not sure it will be a public plan otoh)
Good luck making sawdust!
Man, I used for a while 4 xoc1 TH18 with SW115-8 drivers in series parallel configuration on a single Crown XLS 2002 bridge and man!!!!! That was awesome!!! On rock and EDM parties they shook a 445 sq meters space like they were crazy! Then think about the fact the Keystone is a bit more sensitive and goes a bit deeper. That should give you a good insight of what to expect.
Of course, when I changed the amp with a FP140000 clone, where I had 10x the power, all hell broke loose)
Of course, when I changed the amp with a FP140000 clone, where I had 10x the power, all hell broke loose
)Four of these drivers driven to their full potential is something I want to experience, two is very satisfying but I hope to build another two in the future and I think my amp push four to make some damage(measured to 2300w at 40 hz sinewave/4 ohm for >5 seconds both channels driven simultaneously)
I've strapped both in parallel on one channel and all was good, just don't know if psu will puke if I strap two on the other one aswell!
Sae pxm 1450
I've strapped both in parallel on one channel and all was good, just don't know if psu will puke if I strap two on the other one aswell!
Sae pxm 1450
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OSSE - I saw in prior posts you use that PXM1450 and I actually did a fair amount of research into them. Looks like they are unavailable in the USA - if you know of a supplier let me know. I found some in UK but not one that listed shipping to this side. It looks like a great unit and well made, though I did see some reliability concerns.
I know 4 of these subs maxed is going to be insane... I am certain my top boxes could not keep up at that point. Wouldnt the peak db be something like 142?
I pulled 13 amps with both channels running a 60hz sine wave at 8ohms last night on the RMX2450. No clipping and the speakers took the power great - that was fun. For the $250 I got her for I think I am going to find a very hard time getting better value. The PXM850 is very similar specs just not as efficient when bridged.
By the end of this month I will have enough money to buy materials for both of these subs! Planning on using the best baltic birch local, casters and nice cabinet hardware. no expense spared! Will write back when I have all materials!
I know 4 of these subs maxed is going to be insane... I am certain my top boxes could not keep up at that point. Wouldnt the peak db be something like 142?
I pulled 13 amps with both channels running a 60hz sine wave at 8ohms last night on the RMX2450. No clipping and the speakers took the power great - that was fun. For the $250 I got her for I think I am going to find a very hard time getting better value. The PXM850 is very similar specs just not as efficient when bridged.
By the end of this month I will have enough money to buy materials for both of these subs! Planning on using the best baltic birch local, casters and nice cabinet hardware. no expense spared! Will write back when I have all materials!
Insane...?
I used 28 horn loaded Eminence Alpha 8" and 10 EV DH1AMT to "keep up" with a pair of B&C 18SW115-4 loaded Keystones.
Four Keystones can average around 142 dB SPL, peak could be as much as 6 dB over that, if using enough power.
That said, for DJ's playing compressed EDM, 142 dB SPL with a quad is about all you will get without smoking the coils.
Art
Reliability of the pxm 1450 is supposed to be very good actually. Sorry can't help you with suppliers I bought mine from Britain which naturally would be a less painful process for me than for you. I've blown a fuse in 3 phase 16/240 with just two keystones strapped onto one of the phases, I hope something was messed up with that circuit and not that the amp has a tendency to do this. Not happened more than once.
However I really like efficient class D amps and if u get 4 ohm versions you prolly can't go wrong with an inuke 6000, might give them a better beating than my 1450 is my guess from past experiences with class D with other sub cabs.
That is something I keep telling . From 4 of them up things start to be cool.
Again, I don't have the Keystones but at the new year's party here I had 4 th18 on a K10 with a pair of Outline Triple on an outside party and they were killing!!
The city party was made with Meyer Sound and they had 20 *600HP and although they were very loud, they sounded like a one note wonder. With a measuring device I've seen the sound was peaking between 50-65 hz with about 6-8 dB over the other frequencies.
These tapped horns sound more like a well crafted studio monitor with distinct impulses and notes. I use 2 of mine as a home sub with flat response from 25 hz :-D
IMHO , with loads of power, the sub that uses the SW115 driver gets differentiated from the crowd. The FP clone is super well suited to drive 2 pairs of them even without the limitters because the peak power is exactly what they need and the max continuous seems to be near the thermal limit of them, at around 900 Wh each. Now, when I think of the low version that gets the 30 with more power, using the 21DS115 or the SW152 (even better!) and the clone as power amp could easily beat some very expensive and we'll known and used subs like the J-infra from D&B or the JBL G28 . Yes, it will work extremely well with lower power amps but only when one is using the right amount of power they show their true value.
Yes, I have to. I am living in a small apartment and we have to use the space available .
Radulescu,
Having put four of my WS LAB 12 2x12" front loaded bass reflex cabinets up against eight Meyer 2x18" 650HP subs in a side by side outdoor environment, it was obvious the Meyer limiting revealed the actual acoustic response- the 650P were a bit louder in the 60 Hz range, the WS LAB 12 2x12" were louder in the 40 Hz range.
The Keystone sub is exactly the same truck size as a pair of the WS LAB 12 2x12", and has a bit more LF response due to less thermal limiting, but has more upper pass-band response-one BC18SW115 Keystone is about the equivalent to four Meyer 2x18" 650HP in the upper range, but will kick their yass in the 40 Hz range.
Art
I am behaving
I like to have them there because of the low distortions but I don't crank them up. I keep them both on a single channel of the Crown XLS2002 and I rarely see more than 2 LESs blink.5Toes, I can attest to these Keystone subs performance, especially regarding challenging edm bass. I have probably 100hours of hard use on mine (18sw115 4ohm) being driven by a Behringer nu3000dsp in Bridged (good bang for the buck). I started researching "limiting" and decided to just set up the lpf and hpf and run it hard to see what it could really take (a $550 subwoofer experiment of sorts). My behringer is running nearly wide open (internal gain is at 85% and front Ch A level runs about 80% to keep me out of the red). To clarify this is 3000 Watts max of behringer driving a single keystone with no limiting. This is also coming from a system we use on the ranch for outdoor "ranch raves" combined with 4 qsc Kw153 towers and some kw 181 subs. This system gets ran much louder than it should be. I'm moderate, but my dj friends have a terrible tendency to just crank their mixers. Long story short, the Keystone takes this with absolute clarity and broad response. The nature of the design also does an amazing job of forced convection cooling on the magnet of the subwoofer. I constantly monitor temps and have yet to get it hardly warm. I'm tired of getting requests to build more of them, but will have 4 total by the end of this year. There are so many sub designs at big venues that are tuned for maximum spl at a narrow range that it is an absolute pleasure to be around something with spl and a flat response! I will try to AB them with the PK sound coming to down with Datsik (my sub could be at the same venue not being used).
Art Welter is close to a deity. Thank you again Art! I hope to build your dual lab 12 design shortly for a "living room sub".
Art Welter is close to a deity. Thank you again Art! I hope to build your dual lab 12 design shortly for a "living room sub".
Treukauf,
Thanks for the compliments!
I was very close to deification on 1/19/17, but after the anesthesia wore off, just was in pain from a scratched right cornea that occurred during the subdural hematoma repairs.
As you can see, I'm "Astatic" about the results ;^).
I now have four titanium gussets in my cranium, but the 48 (or so) stainless steel rivets were removed with the tool in the plastic bag above Shannon Holt's "Love will tear us Apart" assemblage. At 35 pieces (and counting..) I am now her largest patron, her art is superb.
Although the six Keystone B-Low cabinets cut parts from last year are still just standing (warping..) in the shop, Camphor Lane Studios now has a nice shop to build them in, rather than the carport in the rental house from hell I am glad to have left in last year's wake.
True to form, Marjorie Evans, the 218 South Elsasser landlord from hell did not pay my damage deposit, as well as entering the rental without my permission to "clean", after the cleaning there were personal items missing.
After the brain injury I try not to make time promises, but it does look like I can finally see the light at the end of an 18 month tunnel coming near, it will be good to smell sawdust and be a wood butcher again!
Cheers,
Art
Welter Systems, Inc.
Camphor Lane Studios
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Art, hope you heal up well!. I really think you could market these keystones similar to what danley has done. What two of these subs can do on a small venue with a simple affordable amp setup is impressive. Local bars are always fighting sound systems. Drawing maximum bass from the allowed 20 amps is always a limiting factor. They really are amazing. They draw in bassheads like moths to a flame haha. Im excited to look into your b low keystone. Im behind on the forum reading again. Need to research how much output the blow design gives up to hit the lower freqs.