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-   -   Keystone Sub Using 18, 15, & 12 Inch Speakers (https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/185588-keystone-sub-using-18-15-12-inch-speakers.html)

treukauf 19th September 2016 06:35 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Well here was the weekends trial of the keystone. It was a rush to throw it together in time, but it was just for 20 close friends in our alfalfa bottom haha.

Review:
18sw115 driven by nu3000 dsp bridged.
Having a flatish response does wonders for edm music (havent had time to eq the amp yet). The lower extenstion over our qsc kw181's really made a difference. The bass was incredibly tight and accurate compared to the vented qsc's. I ran the sub for 6 hrs on low volume to break in, then ran the gain and front attenuator around 3/4. Which drove the sub hard. Never got beyond slightly warm with over 8hrs of playing. This design really creates some good forced convection on the sub. People were blown away by the quality of bass and weve been to some pretty impressive venues. Turn downs made everyone smile. I did have to run the sub on its side as it blocked my projection screen. Real world output equalled about two of our qsc's while vastly exceeding their freq range. I a/b'd them and dont seem to notice two much issue with running the tapped horn with vented subs. Im very intrigued to see what a sub that could run down to 20 hz could do.

Great job Art. It exceeded my expectations. The folded horns at Edc Las vegas being boomy and muddy (but loud as hell*) had turned me off anything but vented. I suggest wrapping all the edges in angle iron to protect this puppy as slidding it is very hard on the box. The "sound system for my garage" is quickly becoming something that could damage small children haha. It will only run 3 or 4 times a year so i will report if my ignorant lack of limiting damages the sub.

weltersys 19th September 2016 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treukauf (https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/185588-keystone-sub-using-18-15-12-inch-speakers-post4834141.html#post4834141)
I suggest wrapping all the edges in angle iron to protect this puppy as slidding it is very hard on the box.

Treukauf,

Wrapping the box in angle iron would protect it, but in my experience will destroy everything it comes in contact with, and can potentially dice off fingers like Vienna sausages.

If you plan to slide the box rather than wheel it around, EPDM plastic strips work well, and can be made as interlocks between cabinets.

With the corners rounded with a 3/4" router bit, and painted with a primer coat, and a coat of Duratex, I only needed to do minor touch up on my pair of Keystones annually. I keep some touch up paint in a can with a built in brush so I can paint little scratches on the gig.

Thanks for the review!

Art

zettairyouiki 19th September 2016 07:20 PM

I use HDPE skids on all my cabinets. I think it works out pretty well. Duratex is a no-brainer for anything that sees PA-type use.

https://i.imgur.com/nXUWHRD.jpg

Osse 19th September 2016 09:12 PM

Nice to hear treukauf! I was ab'ing my keystones to my four FLH's and they really cancelled each other out really bad, with both connected or one pair disconnected.

I would recommend you use the keystone standing up, I heard a considerable difference compared to laying down.

Osse 26th September 2016 10:27 AM

This Saturday I was running my two cabs 18sw115-8 loaded at a friends techno party.

The first 3 hours I ran the cabs with limiter at 78 volts, the magnets did not get very warm so the last two hours I increased the limiter threshold to around 95 volts. The system was running really hard a few dB's into limiter and I've examined the techno we play and the crestfactor is mostly around 3-4.5 with very heavy 40 hz sub.

The magnets were heating up considerably(I had a ir thermometer that showed around 35C before the limiter change and around 40C after so I don't trust it, I would say around 70-80C). The SPL and SQ was out of this world!

No magic smoke came out. The driver would have seen around 1400 watts if the Zmin is 6.5 ohms

I wonder if the settings are safe for around 12H parties? If run like that for two hours(after 3 hours with more conservative settings) my guess is they reached their max temp at that time for the setting, making 12h+ safe aswell.

Hope it can help someone choosing limiter settings for their cabs!

USRFobiwan 26th September 2016 10:41 AM

Out of experience, I would say build some more subs and lower the gain on the amps. It not only 'relaxes' your subs, but also let you amplifiers breath.

Osse 26th September 2016 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by USRFobiwan (https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/185588-keystone-sub-using-18-15-12-inch-speakers-post4840364.html#post4840364)
Out of experience, I would say build some more subs and lower the gain on the amps. It not only 'relaxes' your subs, but also let you amplifiers breath.

The system did not sound distressed at all on these levels.

I'm however considering two more cabs if I can find the use for them, as my amp can push two 18sw 115 each channel the only cost would be two more cabinets. It's a good thing finding the limits and reach max potential of the system aswell as utilizing a good number of cabs :)

weltersys 26th September 2016 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by USRFobiwan (https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/185588-keystone-sub-using-18-15-12-inch-speakers-post4840364.html#post4840364)
Out of experience, I would say build some more subs and lower the gain on the amps. It not only 'relaxes' your subs, but also let you amplifiers breath.

USRFobiwan,

Building more subs is always a good idea if one wants more SPL than can be safely achieved with whatever quantity you presently own..

The amplifiers I am presently using (Behringer NU4-6000) "breathe" well enough that they barely get warm running all four channels with two ohm loads driven with sine wave tones at 60 or 30 Hz. Others amps I have tested, such as the QSC PLX3602, had fan output that felt like a blow drier while putting out less power, and drawing far more AC mains power.

Lowering gain on amps does nothing other than increase signal to noise ratio slightly, and allow one to potentially clip drive units upstream of the amplifier gain control without achieving the amplifier's peak output potential.

Art

radulescu 26th September 2016 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osse (https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/185588-keystone-sub-using-18-15-12-inch-speakers-post4840356.html#post4840356)
This Saturday I was running my two cabs 18sw115-8 loaded at a friends techno party.

The first 3 hours I ran the cabs with limiter at 78 volts, the magnets did not get very warm so the last two hours I increased the limiter threshold to around 95 volts. The system was running really hard a few dB's into limiter and I've examined the techno we play and the crestfactor is mostly around 3-4.5 with very heavy 40 hz sub.

The magnets were heating up considerably(I had a ir thermometer that showed around 35C before the limiter change and around 40C after so I don't trust it, I would say around 70-80C). The SPL and SQ was out of this world!

No magic smoke came out. The driver would have seen around 1400 watts if the Zmin is 6.5 ohms

I wonder if the settings are safe for around 12H parties? If run like that for two hours(after 3 hours with more conservative settings) my guess is they reached their max temp at that time for the setting, making 12h+ safe aswell.

Hope it can help someone choosing limiter settings for their cabs!

This is a thing I keep seeing, driving the amp into clipping or driving the processor into protection. So, I wanted to tell you my opinion and the way I use the limitters.
First, I have my own business here where I go in clubs and set the processors and position of equipment. From lots and lots of testing, I found out that those limitters are meant to keep things in check IF they need to. In reality, you have to avoid engaging them because they distort the sound.
The settings I use with Powersoft amps in my Xoc with BC18SW115 8 ohm are
Peak Voltage Limitter, hard brick wall limit at 145 V. Here I felt the driver was still in check on strong transients.
Long term power limitter 110 V Attack 400 ms, hold 2 s ,release 100 ms,
True power limit 900 Watt attack 2 sec, release 4 sec .
This way the sound is immensely powerful and dynamic, the drivers never got hotter than 65 C after 5 hours of dance music and the excursion is kept in check.
But, those limitter are rarely engaged. I keep the gain in the amp or processor as low as it is needed and I keep my eyes on the DJs and only when the go in Over on their mixers, the limitter engages on peaks. I've tested this in many systems with lots of types of music and it never ceases to amaze

Osse 26th September 2016 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by radulescu (https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/185588-keystone-sub-using-18-15-12-inch-speakers-post4840768.html#post4840768)
This is a thing I keep seeing, driving the amp into clipping or driving the processor into protection. So, I wanted to tell you my opinion and the way I use the limitters.
First, I have my own business here where I go in clubs and set the processors and position of equipment. From lots and lots of testing, I found out that those limitters are meant to keep things in check IF they need to. In reality, you have to avoid engaging them because they distort the sound.
The settings I use with Powersoft amps in my Xoc with BC18SW115 8 ohm are
Peak Voltage Limitter, hard brick wall limit at 145 V. Here I felt the driver was still in check on strong transients.
Long term power limitter 110 V Attack 400 ms, hold 2 s ,release 100 ms,
True power limit 900 Watt attack 2 sec, release 4 sec .
This way the sound is immensely powerful and dynamic, the drivers never got hotter than 65 C after 5 hours of dance music and the excursion is kept in check.
But, those limitter are rarely engaged. I keep the gain in the amp or processor as low as it is needed and I keep my eyes on the DJs and only when the go in Over on their mixers, the limitter engages on peaks. I've tested this in many systems with lots of types of music and it never ceases to amaze

Would be interesting to hear your system with these settings.

What is the difference between long term power limit and True power limiter? I don't have that sophisticated limiters in my drpa+.

With my settings I could not notice any considerable nasty distortion, I had maybe 2-3 dBs of limit which I think is okay. my guess is I extract a few more dbs from my drivers than you. I like to dial the settings so that no matter what the DJ does it will not break and sound good and when I have good power on tap I mostly succeed with that.


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