I walk relay each year, and always cringe at the 15+comp cabinets with no subs that always show up... However walking all the 80's music they always play is fun with friends.
The 'key' to a good sounding TH in my opinion is to minimize parallel walls/standing resonances, and to minimize similar path lengths. It's kinda like playing a chord on a piano. The richer the chord, the fuller the overall sound.
I'm curious, I just 'ran the numbers' on this TH WRT HR path-length and end loading, winding up at ~409 L Vs your ~ 573 L, so was wondering if the little extra calculated SPL it has (gray trace) is really worth an extra ~164 L for its intended app(s) and whether or not you think this driver can safely handle its bit higher ~1.762 Vs ~1.124 CR?
TIA,
GM
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![Eminence Kappalite 3015LF 27.21 Hz TH [jbell] GM ~409 L variant.gif](/community/data/attachments/187/187858-d06815b9ffa090ec500d6d174a4e6437.jpg)
![Eminence Kappalite 3015LF 27.21 Hz TH [jbell] GM ~409 L variant x 4.gif](/community/data/attachments/187/187863-e8a8ffce92c2fa9b7dcbb7c3847684b1.jpg)
gm:
If your hornresp was on the 2x2x4 box shown in that link -- I don't like it, and won't build another. It's personally not worth it to me to refine it. It was a 150lb experiment, that while salvaged for the intended install with a couple reflectors... it did not achieve what I was looking for -- A cheap, easy, quick build that would satisfy a large number of the installs I have to do.
The single sheet design does that for me. It's the cabinet I'll build in the future.
If your hornresp was on the 2x2x4 box shown in that link -- I don't like it, and won't build another. It's personally not worth it to me to refine it. It was a 150lb experiment, that while salvaged for the intended install with a couple reflectors... it did not achieve what I was looking for -- A cheap, easy, quick build that would satisfy a large number of the installs I have to do.
The single sheet design does that for me. It's the cabinet I'll build in the future.
could you use this, or are the specs unsuitable? LAB 15 at 70% discount
Eminence Lab 15 High-Power 15" Subwoofer and more PA Cabinet Parts at GuitarCenter.com.
saw this on the other forum and I thought of you!
Ben
Eminence Lab 15 High-Power 15" Subwoofer and more PA Cabinet Parts at GuitarCenter.com.
saw this on the other forum and I thought of you!
Ben
Eminence Lab 15 High-Power 15" Subwoofer and more PA Cabinet Parts at GuitarCenter.com.
saw this on the other forum and I thought of you!
Ben
Whoa -that's a HUGE price drop! Has anyone done a TH around that driver?
Indeed! ~$100 delivered to my door. Wish I could take advantage of it.
Just sims...........
GM
There is a "MKII" of my THAM15 (aka andershorn) in the works, the modifications is based around four 45deg. refelctors positioned in the horn path, one of wich also acts as a chamfer at the mouth increasing S4 by a factor of approx 1.2 and slightly increasing L34.
These changes are along the lines of what William and I once talked about some time ago but i did not act on it, but now a friend of mine here in Sweden has offered to try this mods out and compare them to the original design in an atempt to improve the design.
Hopefully these changes will result in a slightly higher over all effeciency and supression of the 180Hz dip, but this remains to be seen.
These changes are along the lines of what William and I once talked about some time ago but i did not act on it, but now a friend of mine here in Sweden has offered to try this mods out and compare them to the original design in an atempt to improve the design.
Hopefully these changes will result in a slightly higher over all effeciency and supression of the 180Hz dip, but this remains to be seen.
When I built my big heavy cabinet that has a similar path... The reflectors that made the most difference was about a 15 degree reflector in the back/bottom, and a 45 degree in the back/top. Everything else was a net minus. Solid braces in the horn path are a net minus. The mouth angle increasing S4 should increase 100hz at the expense of 40hz as well as minimize the dip. Adding about a 2:1 compression plate to the driver baffle is also a plus.
It was apparently a one day deal. Snooze, you lose these days. On talk radio yesterday, they were 'revealing' that for Christmas specials there would be some major retail chains taking advantage of all the cheap, available retail space to open stores for only a few days or until sales dropped to some predetermined point and/or stock ran out to try and loosen up Wal-Mart's 'strangle hold' on the season.
GM
GM
ON their side they seem to have a wider dispersion and are not so accurately aimed. If they have to be on each side of a stage, you should be able to see the back of magnets from the center of the dance floor or crowd area. This will give you some center fill. If you want precise aiming to a central point set them mouth down. You have to rethink placement.
As far as a shootout, the TH against a direct radiator will drop a pro guys jaw. Th's don't "sound" loud like 18's do because they stay clean. When you run a DB meter you get a big surprise seeing how loud your system really is!
Most people perceive loud as distortion and don't realize how loud a clean system really is.
Sorry I've been away... we need to get out of here, Colorado here we come!
I've been quoted, "A vented box is a vented box..." that is to say your not going to avoid physics...
Still you're claim that vented boxes are terribly non linear is not true. Many are but listen to a self powered Meyer sub sometimes... or the cheaper L-ACOUSTICS SB218.
Do you think that your tapped horn will best a 700hp by Meyer Sound in terms of low extension, and max SPL for a given volume?... (@ a Set % of distortion)?
Hell on wheels...
First off, I am a HUGE Meyer Fan, more than most people realize.
A single 18 meyer self powered against a single 15 TH with the same amount of power at 8 Ohms: The meyer will run out of xmax first...period.
The perception of loud however is a different story as the 18 will compress and breakup way before the 15 TH resulting in higher frequency harmonics and distortions making it "sound louder" even though the TH is busy rearranging your heart rate. This is real world experience.
Now to compare a Meyer 650 powered sub (double 18") with 1240watts divided as 620w per internal amp at 8 ohms to a single TH15 with 450 watts and yeah the Meyer will win, but the TH will give it one hell of a challenge with 1/3rd the power and less than half the cone area. Outdoors however the TH just might win due to the acoustical impedance.
Most of the boxes in this thread are designed for maximum spl with limited power for small systems handled by one or two people. Anyone with deep pockets can go buy a 24foot box truck full of Meyer gear and kick anyone's butt, but good luck getting enough gigs to pay for it these days.
These are different tools for different uses. If you want the best and want to do large 10-15 thousand dollar shows, get Meyers or Danleys. That also means you belong in the pro sound forum not DIY. If you want to sound as good as a Huge concert system, in a small venue, for under $1000.00 per show, band and lights included, you have to build something like the TH's weve come up with here. It's a little like comparing an F350 to a Kenworth, do you need to tow a 40 foot trailer every day or not, and can you justify the cost?
P.S. I got your message a few days ago as I've been away.
First off, I am a HUGE Meyer Fan, more than most people realize.
A single 18 meyer self powered against a single 15 TH with the same amount of power at 8 Ohms: The meyer will run out of xmax first...period.
The perception of loud however is a different story as the 18 will compress and breakup way before the 15 TH resulting in higher frequency harmonics and distortions making it "sound louder" even though the TH is busy rearranging your heart rate. This is real world experience.
Now to compare a Meyer 650 powered sub (double 18") with 1240watts divided as 620w per internal amp at 8 ohms to a single TH15 with 450 watts and yeah the Meyer will win, but the TH will give it one hell of a challenge with 1/3rd the power and less than half the cone area. Outdoors however the TH just might win due to the acoustical impedance.
Most of the boxes in this thread are designed for maximum spl with limited power for small systems handled by one or two people. Anyone with deep pockets can go buy a 24foot box truck full of Meyer gear and kick anyone's butt, but good luck getting enough gigs to pay for it these days.
These are different tools for different uses. If you want the best and want to do large 10-15 thousand dollar shows, get Meyers or Danleys. That also means you belong in the pro sound forum not DIY. If you want to sound as good as a Huge concert system, in a small venue, for under $1000.00 per show, band and lights included, you have to build something like the TH's weve come up with here. It's a little like comparing an F350 to a Kenworth, do you need to tow a 40 foot trailer every day or not, and can you justify the cost?
P.S. I got your message a few days ago as I've been away.
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If you want a comparison of efficiency between vented and horn loaded, then read Danley's Labhorn paper.
He compares an ideal vented system to his Labhorn system.
In terms of weight and volume and power input and cost of speakers and cost of amplifiers (running cost and capital cost) the horn beats the vented sometimes by as much as a factor of ten.
The TH comes close to a Labhorn in some of those specifications over a restricted bandwidth. The ideal Vented cannot get close.
Finally, as the system volume (cubic metres or cubic feet) becomes smaller the TH performance starts to approach being the best of the three types.
He compares an ideal vented system to his Labhorn system.
In terms of weight and volume and power input and cost of speakers and cost of amplifiers (running cost and capital cost) the horn beats the vented sometimes by as much as a factor of ten.
The TH comes close to a Labhorn in some of those specifications over a restricted bandwidth. The ideal Vented cannot get close.
Finally, as the system volume (cubic metres or cubic feet) becomes smaller the TH performance starts to approach being the best of the three types.
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So far the one time my system was seriously "bested in a small club" was as follows:
6 fury subs 2000watts total
8 modded ot12 biamped 2400 watts total
4 15" two watt horn loaded side fill monitors, 3 single 15 2way floor monitors, one double 15 for drum monitors.
against
6 Eaw KF650s and 6 Eaw 650 subs (double 18).
Estimated power about 50,000 watts through TWO 4 foot EAW supplied racks.
Ironically they had a Behringer board and only two...yes two 12" eaw floor monitors they crammed 6 keyboards, electric drums, bass and guitar through along with vocals.
It was so loud and horrible everyone left holding their ears despite paper towels and toilet paper getting shoved in them. And this crowd loves loud!.
"Better" depends on the situation. That was like a nuclear bomb when only a couple sticks of dynamite was needed.
Frankly I have been told that some of the DIY pa systems including mine, are far better sounding than commercial ones in certain venues.
If someone wants to bring in their own top of the line system, I gladly let them. If they want to bring in a guitar center PA.......the answer is NO.
By the way... The guys with the EAW system broke their board during the first set, wound up using my modded yamaha at the club owners request, and promptly packed MY board in THEIR truck at the end of the night. I never got it back. It cost me an entire season of work because I didn't have that board which was listed on the riders in my contract.
6 fury subs 2000watts total
8 modded ot12 biamped 2400 watts total
4 15" two watt horn loaded side fill monitors, 3 single 15 2way floor monitors, one double 15 for drum monitors.
against
6 Eaw KF650s and 6 Eaw 650 subs (double 18).
Estimated power about 50,000 watts through TWO 4 foot EAW supplied racks.
Ironically they had a Behringer board and only two...yes two 12" eaw floor monitors they crammed 6 keyboards, electric drums, bass and guitar through along with vocals.
It was so loud and horrible everyone left holding their ears despite paper towels and toilet paper getting shoved in them. And this crowd loves loud!.
"Better" depends on the situation. That was like a nuclear bomb when only a couple sticks of dynamite was needed.
Frankly I have been told that some of the DIY pa systems including mine, are far better sounding than commercial ones in certain venues.
If someone wants to bring in their own top of the line system, I gladly let them. If they want to bring in a guitar center PA.......the answer is NO.
By the way... The guys with the EAW system broke their board during the first set, wound up using my modded yamaha at the club owners request, and promptly packed MY board in THEIR truck at the end of the night. I never got it back. It cost me an entire season of work because I didn't have that board which was listed on the riders in my contract.