mike:
I thought about your question about holding back tops some more, and I guess I can offer this:
1. the beta 12a's are PE rated at 250, the 3015lf's at 450.
2. The tops are about 101 or so efficient, the subs about 103-105.
3. When things get seriously loud, you always run out of tops first, because you can accept a little distortion from your subs before you can accept the same distortion from your tops.
4. I like running my subs (at moderate levels) about 6-10db total hotter than my tops.
5. On installs I set the limiter on the crown to -3db lower on the top channel vs the subs.
So, is that holding back the tops vs. the subs? If you are looking at it from a voltage from the amp point of view -- yea, I guess by about 3db. However, the tops and the subs seem to run out of gas at about the same time the way I set things up, so I'm not sure 'holding back' is the correct term.
Hope that's helpful.
I thought about your question about holding back tops some more, and I guess I can offer this:
1. the beta 12a's are PE rated at 250, the 3015lf's at 450.
2. The tops are about 101 or so efficient, the subs about 103-105.
3. When things get seriously loud, you always run out of tops first, because you can accept a little distortion from your subs before you can accept the same distortion from your tops.
4. I like running my subs (at moderate levels) about 6-10db total hotter than my tops.
5. On installs I set the limiter on the crown to -3db lower on the top channel vs the subs.
So, is that holding back the tops vs. the subs? If you are looking at it from a voltage from the amp point of view -- yea, I guess by about 3db. However, the tops and the subs seem to run out of gas at about the same time the way I set things up, so I'm not sure 'holding back' is the correct term.
Hope that's helpful.
Chill.
Jim has shared far more than you, and answered far more than you've asked.
Thank you jbell for the information and answering my question. After going back and reading my post, it was way to harsh sounding. I am sorry for that Jim...
We have been using old Peavey W bins. They weight a ton, I hate them! We pulled the speakers out of the Titan 48's, they are to big to handle with my bad back. I am ready to start the build of 4 subs and then build more if needed. I will be matching them up with 4 otops Beta 12's loaded. Will post pic's and give a review when completed.
We will be using them for recorded music(mainly 80's rock and new and old country). They will get used mostly in small to medium sized clubs(150 -200) people. Also school dances and party's with no more then 300 people.
Jim, did you decide on a name for this new sub?
Thanks again,
Mike
P.S. I will put myself in timeout now.
We have been using old Peavey W bins. They weight a ton, I hate them! We pulled the speakers out of the Titan 48's, they are to big to handle with my bad back. I am ready to start the build of 4 subs and then build more if needed. I will be matching them up with 4 otops Beta 12's loaded. Will post pic's and give a review when completed.
We will be using them for recorded music(mainly 80's rock and new and old country). They will get used mostly in small to medium sized clubs(150 -200) people. Also school dances and party's with no more then 300 people.
Jim, did you decide on a name for this new sub?
Thanks again,
Mike
P.S. I will put myself in timeout now.
Hey mike, no worries. I figured your intention was nothing personal.
W-bins... I hate w-bins... Band in college I was part of had these big heavy, 18" made by a member, nothing below 70hz w-bins. They looked like hell, sounded like hell... and was for a Christian rock band... (not a good combination.) Between the stone ear sound guy, who only knew 'up' and the w-bins -- I about lost my sanity some nights.
Anyway, I'm not into clever names, so how about SS15 for the sub and HS12 for the top?
4+4 subs/tops should get you about whatever you need sound-wise, and nothing will be over 50lbs. Perfect for roadies with back issues.
I look forward to a review, especially in light of your experiences with the much revered T48's....
W-bins... I hate w-bins... Band in college I was part of had these big heavy, 18" made by a member, nothing below 70hz w-bins. They looked like hell, sounded like hell... and was for a Christian rock band... (not a good combination.) Between the stone ear sound guy, who only knew 'up' and the w-bins -- I about lost my sanity some nights.
Anyway, I'm not into clever names, so how about SS15 for the sub and HS12 for the top?
4+4 subs/tops should get you about whatever you need sound-wise, and nothing will be over 50lbs. Perfect for roadies with back issues.
I look forward to a review, especially in light of your experiences with the much revered T48's....
Good job Jim,
This sub is even better than your big TH. MARTINSSON did get shorted ... while you beat
his specs, no one noticed that his was only 187 liters while yours was 274 liters (see Hoffman's
Iron Law). If he redesigned his to meet the "single sheet of ply" rule, he could come much closer.
Sorry I flaked out on you earlier. Blood pressure's too high & pulse is too slow.
It really cuts into my concentration.
This sub is even better than your big TH. MARTINSSON did get shorted ... while you beat
his specs, no one noticed that his was only 187 liters while yours was 274 liters (see Hoffman's
Iron Law). If he redesigned his to meet the "single sheet of ply" rule, he could come much closer.
Sorry I flaked out on you earlier. Blood pressure's too high & pulse is too slow.
It really cuts into my concentration.
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Jim,
You hit the nail on the head about the W-bins! I will be so glad when we stop using them.
I am going to try to get started tomorrow on the new subs. I am not too fast with the build process because of health issues. Slow but sure as my body lets me. But I will post pics of the process and report on it. The SS15 and the HS12 sound great. Good to have a name to refer to.
I built 2 Titans 48" x 24" loaded with the 3015lf. I was very disappointed with the results. I had to hold back 2 Otops for the subs to keep up, running them 2 tops and 2 titans at 60 volts . I was hoping the drivers would break in and they would be better. But no such luck. They are way too big for me and my bad back. It was a pain to V plate them and most times there wasn't enough room to do so at the places we play. Maybe I was asking too much of them, but they didn't live up to what I expected. I think a direct 15" box would out perform YMMV...did you ever build Titans?
Thanks again,
You hit the nail on the head about the W-bins! I will be so glad when we stop using them.
I am going to try to get started tomorrow on the new subs. I am not too fast with the build process because of health issues. Slow but sure as my body lets me. But I will post pics of the process and report on it. The SS15 and the HS12 sound great. Good to have a name to refer to.
I built 2 Titans 48" x 24" loaded with the 3015lf. I was very disappointed with the results. I had to hold back 2 Otops for the subs to keep up, running them 2 tops and 2 titans at 60 volts . I was hoping the drivers would break in and they would be better. But no such luck. They are way too big for me and my bad back. It was a pain to V plate them and most times there wasn't enough room to do so at the places we play. Maybe I was asking too much of them, but they didn't live up to what I expected. I think a direct 15" box would out perform YMMV...did you ever build Titans?
Thanks again,
Yea... I built several things that start with the Letter 'T'
-13db at 40hz vs 100hz is the perfect recipe to roast hot dogs to perfection.....
You will have to 'unlearn' what you know about sub placement with these. If you are going to 'corner load' them, that means putting them in a corner facing OUT. They work very well in front of a stage on their sides, in a line. (their coverage pattern is different on side vs standing up.) Makes a good place for monitors as well.
-13db at 40hz vs 100hz is the perfect recipe to roast hot dogs to perfection.....
You will have to 'unlearn' what you know about sub placement with these. If you are going to 'corner load' them, that means putting them in a corner facing OUT. They work very well in front of a stage on their sides, in a line. (their coverage pattern is different on side vs standing up.) Makes a good place for monitors as well.
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Sorry for my absence in this thread, life as you know happens sometimes, anyway, has there been a actual shoot out between the different designs or are we comparing figures and graphs on the screen ?
I'm very intrested in knowing what the conclusions regarding the various designs strengths and differences are, no matter if i came out beaten to a pulp
A big part of the process of getting better at something is to listen to what people think of what you have acomplished, and how to improve upon that, especially if these people are you guys.
Hi Anders - As far as I know, your design has not been involved in a "Shoot-out" and your Tapped Horn sims as good as Jim's,
when allowances are made for your horns smaller size. How they compare in listening tests remains to be seen, but I'd bet they both do well.
Thanks for your great TH,
Don
when allowances are made for your horns smaller size. How they compare in listening tests remains to be seen, but I'd bet they both do well.
Thanks for your great TH,
Don
Same here with the Titans. I still have to drag the 2 I have in the basement out to the burn pile. At least you were smart and did not paint yours! Mine were painted, what a waste. Oh well I guess chock it up to a learning experience.
Ok I have a little reporting on the SS-15's. It has looked like rain here all day. I did get out 2 sheets of 1/2" ply, and got them rough cut with the skill saw. I can't handle full sheets of ply by myself with the table saw. If weather permits tomorrow, I will run the rough cut pieces though the table saw for there final dimensions.
Also worked on a new screen for the DJ booth today. Got it all mitered and put together. And got one coat of paint on.
I should also be able to try out the new SS-15's with live sound too. My daughter has a band and we run sound for them. I will report on the performance with recorded and live sound both.
Mike
Ok I have a little reporting on the SS-15's. It has looked like rain here all day. I did get out 2 sheets of 1/2" ply, and got them rough cut with the skill saw. I can't handle full sheets of ply by myself with the table saw. If weather permits tomorrow, I will run the rough cut pieces though the table saw for there final dimensions.
Also worked on a new screen for the DJ booth today. Got it all mitered and put together. And got one coat of paint on.
I should also be able to try out the new SS-15's with live sound too. My daughter has a band and we run sound for them. I will report on the performance with recorded and live sound both.
Mike
Hi CuttaBoi,
Sorry to say no more news yet. A few weeks ago I fell and broke a couple of ribs. I was starting to heal up pretty good and got 2 sheets of ply cut. The next day I turned my ankle over and fell again. I injured my ribs again and upper back.
Just as soon as I can get healed, I will get the build going again. I can't tell you how excited I am to get them completed. Will be glad to replace the W-bins we use now. Sorry for rambling on.
Don't give up on me and the build, it will happen and I will post pics and reports on performance.
Thanks Mike
Sorry to say no more news yet. A few weeks ago I fell and broke a couple of ribs. I was starting to heal up pretty good and got 2 sheets of ply cut. The next day I turned my ankle over and fell again. I injured my ribs again and upper back.
Just as soon as I can get healed, I will get the build going again. I can't tell you how excited I am to get them completed. Will be glad to replace the W-bins we use now. Sorry for rambling on.
Don't give up on me and the build, it will happen and I will post pics and reports on performance.
Thanks Mike
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Do you have a link or a post to the HS12? I currently have an EV ZX5 and Love the weight, so I wanted to know if I could build something to accompany it on a room that is 14,000 Sq feet... I also am making some time to build 4 of these SS15 Boxes...
I tried to beat Jim's last cabinet, and failed. I did come up with a modification of Anders cabinet scaled up to match the size of Jim's cabinet. It's max
output is down 3dB from Jim's but it goes 5Hz lower.
If you want 40Hz in a single box, it may be your best choice.
output is down 3dB from Jim's but it goes 5Hz lower.
If you want 40Hz in a single box, it may be your best choice.
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http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/127908-jbells-set-four-tapped-horns-22.html#post2144696
Don:
I've built something like that. However without a shallow reflector at the bottom, and a 45 degree at the top -- things were ugly. VERY ugly.
Don:
I've built something like that. However without a shallow reflector at the bottom, and a 45 degree at the top -- things were ugly. VERY ugly.
Thanks Jim,
As good as HornResp is, it doesn't sim everything. I am surprised since my first TH was OK and Anders' horn was reported to sound so good. I may build
one and attempt to fix it by trial and error, but I'm no Screamer.
I wish Tom would critique some of these boxes, but that's asking the guy to cut his own throat.
I work with "Relay for Life" and plan to build up a PA to loan out. The Crown XTi 2000 looks like a good way to go. If you have any hints, please e-mail me.
~Don
As good as HornResp is, it doesn't sim everything. I am surprised since my first TH was OK and Anders' horn was reported to sound so good. I may build
one and attempt to fix it by trial and error, but I'm no Screamer.
I wish Tom would critique some of these boxes, but that's asking the guy to cut his own throat.
I work with "Relay for Life" and plan to build up a PA to loan out. The Crown XTi 2000 looks like a good way to go. If you have any hints, please e-mail me.
~Don