I hear ya. I have to watch my audio budget close these days too. Silver (& copper) have gone crazy compared to just a few years ago. After I did the "Kitchen Sink" mod, I experimented with all kinds and combinations including solid core silver, braided magnet wire, teflon/stranded copper etc. I ended up with braided 24 awg solid cu/teflon as I described earlier and am satisfied with the results. I was amazed at the difference the wire (gauge/configuration etc.) going to the ribbon tweeter made to the overall balance of the speaker. Especially when you consider that most times there's just a gold plated brass jumper between the low and high binding posts.
As a suggestion, you might want to buy just some Cat 5 plenum/teflon wire and try the braid. First of all for practice (it took me some time to learn how to braid), and too as an experiment to see if you like the sound. If you do, Jeff has some really good stuff (silver and copper) that you can get for the finished project.
Jeff,
A couple things. I realized that my in-cabinet cabling is 14 ga not 16; will this influence your crossover to speaker cable recommendations at all? Also, what is meant by the bypass cap; are these caps hooked up in parallel? My High pass cables are 5 feet long which I believe means I would need to get 24 feet of silver (upocc teflon) at $11.59/foot which adds up really fast on top of the upocc copper. This is expensive enough I will seriously need to think about it.
Guild,
What are you using for the low pass cabling? I am still trying to understand the 12 conductor braiding process.
Thanks for your help guys!
Rich
A couple things. I realized that my in-cabinet cabling is 14 ga not 16; will this influence your crossover to speaker cable recommendations at all? Also, what is meant by the bypass cap; are these caps hooked up in parallel? My High pass cables are 5 feet long which I believe means I would need to get 24 feet of silver (upocc teflon) at $11.59/foot which adds up really fast on top of the upocc copper. This is expensive enough I will seriously need to think about it.
Guild,
What are you using for the low pass cabling? I am still trying to understand the 12 conductor braiding process.
Thanks for your help guys!
Rich
Jeff,
I know nothing about bypass caps but just read enough to be dangerous! You suggested 10uF/200V Sonicap G1 bypassed with a 2.2uF Mundorf Silver/Oil. The stuff I read said that the bypass cap should be between 1/10 and 1/100 of the main cap value. Would I be better off trying 11uF/200V Sonicap G1 bypassed with a 1uF Mundorf Silver/Oil? Or a 12uF/200V Sonicap G1 bypassed with a .22uF Mundorf Silver/Oil?
Thanks,
Rich
I know nothing about bypass caps but just read enough to be dangerous! You suggested 10uF/200V Sonicap G1 bypassed with a 2.2uF Mundorf Silver/Oil. The stuff I read said that the bypass cap should be between 1/10 and 1/100 of the main cap value. Would I be better off trying 11uF/200V Sonicap G1 bypassed with a 1uF Mundorf Silver/Oil? Or a 12uF/200V Sonicap G1 bypassed with a .22uF Mundorf Silver/Oil?
Thanks,
Rich
I used Vampire 14 awg stranded ccc copper for the internal wiring (woofers/midrange).
Re. braiding: I practiced with 4 single wires until I got the hang of it. Then I used the same technique for the multi-wire per polarity braid.
Rich,
Stranded 14ga changes everything. You would be fine running a single twisted pair of the same stranded 14ga. I agree and understand that it might take the Silver off of the table. However, I have no other recommendation. I actually believe the benefit in something else would be sub-par enough to suggest sticking with what you have. It is kind of a all or nothing kind of type of thing. This type of thing does not present itself often, but when it does...
The only other thing I can do to help is: From this day forward, I will offer all diyAudio members, who participate in my forum, a 20% discount on all of our Neotech wire. You will need to mention your moniker along with this discount when placing your order.
Easy buddy
Yes, you parallel when bypassing. There are no rules of thumb for bypassing. Those ratios have been handed down over time
There are only desired results and degrees of success. I have tried that particular combo of caps in several ratios. 10/2.2 worked the best. More S/O does sound slightly better, but blows the price to performance ratioJeff,
Now that I have looked back at the old invoice I have found that the internal speaker wire to the woofers is stranded 14 ga upocc copper with teflon. I am getting closer to placing an order and appreciate!!! You said the silver would be off the table with the stranded wire; now what? Sorry my info was wrong before.
Guild,
I think I understand your braiding. It appears that you would have 4 "ribbons" of 3 wires each with 2 wires of one polarity and one wire of the other. I would assume that you want to balance out the number of strands of each polarity within each helix. Does this sound right?
Thanks,
Rich
Now that I have looked back at the old invoice I have found that the internal speaker wire to the woofers is stranded 14 ga upocc copper with teflon. I am getting closer to placing an order and appreciate
!!! You said the silver would be off the table with the stranded wire; now what? Sorry my info was wrong before.Guild,
I think I understand your braiding. It appears that you would have 4 "ribbons" of 3 wires each with 2 wires of one polarity and one wire of the other. I would assume that you want to balance out the number of strands of each polarity within each helix. Does this sound right?
Thanks,
Rich
RichJeff,
Now that I have looked back at the old invoice I have found that the internal speaker wire to the woofers is stranded 14 ga upocc copper with teflon. I am getting closer to placing an order and appreciate
Guild,
I think I understand your braiding. It appears that you would have 4 "ribbons" of 3 wires each with 2 wires of one polarity and one wire of the other. I would assume that you want to balance out the number of strands of each polarity within each helix. Does this sound right?
Thanks,
Rich
"4 ribbons of three wires each"...this is correct. "But" you then perform a (4 ribbon) Milloit braid and when complete you still have 4 - 3 wire ribbons. Combine 2 ea. of these ribbons for each polarity...so you make 2 - 6 wire "pigtails" (6 for + and 6 for -). Note: there are two options/ways to connect the "pigtails" (see earlier posts on this).
For the 6 wire "pigtails" at each end: I stopped the braid with about 4 inches unbraided at the ends, combined the polarities and then performed a 6 wire flat braid for the "pigtails". You could also just twist the 6 wires together.
A braid like this takes patience and is not that easy to master...at least for me. It was an experiment (as mush as anything) and I enjoyed the challenge of learning how to braid. There are certainly easier/simpler configurations. Fortunately it turned out well sonically...at least to my ears. Better than anything I've tried...YMMV. Hope this helps.
Guild
Guild,
I have enough teflon covered copper wire to try your braid so I will. I have already started to deconstruct the cat 5 cable for it. I would like to try Jeff's as well but I am wondering if his suggestion may be different now that I discovered that I did use 14 ga stranded upocc copper with teflon in the bass box. Thank you for sharing your experiences!
Rich
I have enough teflon covered copper wire to try your braid so I will. I have already started to deconstruct the cat 5 cable for it. I would like to try Jeff's as well but I am wondering if his suggestion may be different now that I discovered that I did use 14 ga stranded upocc copper with teflon in the bass box. Thank you for sharing your experiences!
Rich
Rich,
I did not mean that your stranded 14ga in the cabinet changed what you should do from the XO to the ribbon. I meant it changed what was necessary from the XO to the cabinet (low-pass). Instead of using four runs of solid 16ga, you can merely use a twisted pair of stranded 14ga.
For the XO to ribbon (high-pass), I would still use 2x23Ag, and 2x18Cu. If the runs are short enough along with the discount, perhaps it will still happen.
I had a customer with a ribbon tweeter (not a Newform) in a pretty fancy pair of custom speakers. He asked me about cap and wire options. He was already using a pretty good cap combo, but his speaker wire was "anti" what he was looking for IMO. I suggested the same combo I recommended to you. He basically implied, "I'm not twisting that mess up". So, he took the leap, and had us wind some up for him. I had not heard back from him in the past few weeks, until last Thursday...
Jeff,
My God this cable is fantastic. Now getting excellent tonal balance and noticeable front to back depth. I'm not even sure if there are any more upgrades-I'm afraid to ask. Not that I could afford it this year but do you think a change from Mapleshade Clearview double golden helix speaker cable or a change in capacitors would increase front to back depth- I go to CES shows and I don't think tonal quality can improve much.
Thanks
Hunter
YMMV,
Jeff
I did not mean that your stranded 14ga in the cabinet changed what you should do from the XO to the ribbon. I meant it changed what was necessary from the XO to the cabinet (low-pass). Instead of using four runs of solid 16ga, you can merely use a twisted pair of stranded 14ga.
For the XO to ribbon (high-pass), I would still use 2x23Ag, and 2x18Cu. If the runs are short enough along with the discount, perhaps it will still happen.
I had a customer with a ribbon tweeter (not a Newform) in a pretty fancy pair of custom speakers. He asked me about cap and wire options. He was already using a pretty good cap combo, but his speaker wire was "anti" what he was looking for IMO. I suggested the same combo I recommended to you. He basically implied, "I'm not twisting that mess up". So, he took the leap, and had us wind some up for him. I had not heard back from him in the past few weeks, until last Thursday...
Jeff,
My God this cable is fantastic. Now getting excellent tonal balance and noticeable front to back depth. I'm not even sure if there are any more upgrades-I'm afraid to ask. Not that I could afford it this year but do you think a change from Mapleshade Clearview double golden helix speaker cable or a change in capacitors would increase front to back depth- I go to CES shows and I don't think tonal quality can improve much.
Thanks
Hunter
YMMV,
Jeff
From the first page of this thread...
As I said, the low-pass wiring will not effect the high-pass wiring.
As I said, the low-pass wiring will not effect the high-pass wiring.
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Yes...that's the correct way to hook them up according to Milloit in order to gain the max noise rejection etc. What you have is two separate twisted pairs (11/14 & 12/13) braided together. Connect (+ ) from one of the pairs (11/14) to the (+ )of the other pair (12/13) and likewise for the returns (-).
Now, you can try paralleling the connections (this is apparently how Kimber does it with the Hero I/c). No harm in trying this as an experiment.
For further clarification/simplicity...in the context of the braid you're thinking of performing, connect ribbons 11 & 13 for the (+) and ribbons 12 & 14 for the (-). This is the Milloit connection.
For the "Kimber" type connection you would connect 11 & 14 (+) and 12 & 13 (-).
And remember, when finished the braid should look similar to the XLO i/c's I referenced earlier. So you have to take care and dress the 3 wire ribbons around the braid to keep them oriented properly.
Rich...glad you were able to pick up this braid so quickly. Sorry the cables sound a "bit rolled off" but hopefully they will open up a bit as they settle-in. This is kind of the opposite of my experience in that the improvements were immediate upon installing the braided high pass cables. It will be interesting to hear what happens in your case.
I wonder if the Cat 5 wire you used was plenum rated (ie, teflon insulation)? If not this could possibly account for what your hearing.
Guild
Guild,
The cat5 I used is in fact teflon copper. I definitely need to let it settle in some and then reassess speaker placement. I just got the wire for Jeff's suggested low pass cable and will be tackling that this weekend. Right now I have a cross connected coaxial cable for low pass and they are likely a bad mix.
Rich
The cat5 I used is in fact teflon copper. I definitely need to let it settle in some and then reassess speaker placement. I just got the wire for Jeff's suggested low pass cable and will be tackling that this weekend. Right now I have a cross connected coaxial cable for low pass and they are likely a bad mix.
Rich
Once you start down the bypass path, forever will it dominate your destiny (Yoda). I've found several good combos, but like a dog chasing squirrels, I'm always convinced the next combo will be it. These days I'm using a 5%, of 15%,
plus 85% of the total value sought. Try to achieve @ double the voltage rating as your uF decrease, my theory being that they'll be lower in resistance , "steering" higher frequencies through your best caps. Also tried bare silver 18 gauge silver wire from jewellers with good results. I twist each stand in a drill with monofilament fishing line to hold off some spiral plastic wrap/insulation from a local electronics store.Then twist both pairs together opposite spin in the drill. Now you own some twisted pair, almost air dielectric speaker wire.Cost total about $3.50/ft CDN, if that helps.
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