I love this thread! Sometimes it is almost like a soap opera - very entertaining.
I am a businessman by trade and a newbie DIYer. I have owned a Levinson JC2 and I know John can make pretty wiring. But what impresses me is that he is able to make 40 * $25,000 preamps, sell them and make a profit all without pretty wiring. The Blowtorch must sound pretty good to a few people.
Although I cannot follow a lot of the technical discussion, I am still learning about simpler things like evaluating by listening, what potentiometers are better and some of the approaches to dealing with DC offset.
Please keep this thread going.
I am a businessman by trade and a newbie DIYer. I have owned a Levinson JC2 and I know John can make pretty wiring. But what impresses me is that he is able to make 40 * $25,000 preamps, sell them and make a profit all without pretty wiring. The Blowtorch must sound pretty good to a few people.
Although I cannot follow a lot of the technical discussion, I am still learning about simpler things like evaluating by listening, what potentiometers are better and some of the approaches to dealing with DC offset.
Please keep this thread going.
Some people just don't recognize good old fashioned craftsmanship anymore. Exactly how is it rationalized that wire is somehow always inferior to pcb traces. I always thought pcb's were a form of convenience for manufacturing, kind of like a necessary evil, not an absolute yardstick for quality.
Unless you use run bare wires (implying a lack of twisting and/or shielding), the insulation on the wire will add to the dk and da, just like the material of a circuit board. Comparing air to FR4 (or polyester, teflon, or whatever your board material is) isn't so meaningful. What makes more sense is to compare PVC, polyethylene, FPA et al to the board material.
P2P in the air has certain advantages in da, dk and low capacitance, but circuit boards have significant advantages as well. More complex circuit structures may not be feasible with P2P, but doable with a PCB. IME, the simpler the circuit, the more it lends itself to P2P construction (assuming the man-hours for assembly and associated labor costs aren't an issue), and the more complex the circuit, the greater the desireability of using an intelligently laid-out PCB. Of course, a fusion of the two is also perfectly possible - where you analyze each circuit node, decide what the priorities are, and use whatever construction that makes the most sense.
Also, even though I do put effort into reducing the length of input and output wiring inside a product, I don't find that this gives so much benefit to the sound - unless the load of the longer wires represents a significant load on the driving node. The input signal will probably have arrived at the preamp via an interconnect that is far longer than whatever input wiring is present inside the preamp, and the signal will most likely be sent to the following component again via a longish interconnect of appreciably greater length than the output wiring inside the preamp. A little sleep deprivation over reducing input and output wiring lengths is OK, but only a little
.
However, what often does make sense is to reduce the length of wiring inside a circuit stage (both amplification and regulation), as does reducing the physical size of the circuitry, assuming that power handling and TCR requirements cooperate.
hth, jonathan carr
P2P in the air has certain advantages in da, dk and low capacitance, but circuit boards have significant advantages as well. More complex circuit structures may not be feasible with P2P, but doable with a PCB. IME, the simpler the circuit, the more it lends itself to P2P construction (assuming the man-hours for assembly and associated labor costs aren't an issue), and the more complex the circuit, the greater the desireability of using an intelligently laid-out PCB. Of course, a fusion of the two is also perfectly possible - where you analyze each circuit node, decide what the priorities are, and use whatever construction that makes the most sense.
Also, even though I do put effort into reducing the length of input and output wiring inside a product, I don't find that this gives so much benefit to the sound - unless the load of the longer wires represents a significant load on the driving node. The input signal will probably have arrived at the preamp via an interconnect that is far longer than whatever input wiring is present inside the preamp, and the signal will most likely be sent to the following component again via a longish interconnect of appreciably greater length than the output wiring inside the preamp. A little sleep deprivation over reducing input and output wiring lengths is OK, but only a little
. However, what often does make sense is to reduce the length of wiring inside a circuit stage (both amplification and regulation), as does reducing the physical size of the circuitry, assuming that power handling and TCR requirements cooperate.
hth, jonathan carr
where to obtain the dempas
I got mine directly from TDK sales [sales@ko-on.co.jp]. Shino was extremely kind and helpful. Now you have to think about bank, post and taxes extras. I got my 2 gangs for 345€, sharing extras with a friend of mine. You also have to be patient 2-3 months from order to home. This is probably a track for non US only.
Regards.
Philippe.
PS these are really nice beast. I cannot tell you yet how it works as it is said to need 250+ hours breaking in and it is not yet in use.
I got mine directly from TDK sales [sales@ko-on.co.jp]. Shino was extremely kind and helpful. Now you have to think about bank, post and taxes extras. I got my 2 gangs for 345€, sharing extras with a friend of mine. You also have to be patient 2-3 months from order to home. This is probably a track for non US only.
Regards.
Philippe.
PS these are really nice beast. I cannot tell you yet how it works as it is said to need 250+ hours breaking in and it is not yet in use.
I think that Teflon PCBs are great for low voltage applications like RIAA MM and MC preamps due to Teflon's good damping, and I use Teflon PCBs for line amps as well
It is a bit more expensive than FR4 but it is an easy way to dampen the PCB from vibrations.
Silver as tracks on a PCB can be done rather easily. Maybe a layer of gold on top of the siver to protect it from "oxidaton" is the ultimate PCB?
The gold might even help to make the sound a bit warmer compared to pure silver if one wants a warmer sound.
Sigurd
It is a bit more expensive than FR4 but it is an easy way to dampen the PCB from vibrations.
Silver as tracks on a PCB can be done rather easily. Maybe a layer of gold on top of the siver to protect it from "oxidaton" is the ultimate PCB?
The gold might even help to make the sound a bit warmer compared to pure silver if one wants a warmer sound.
Sigurd
Sigurd Ruschkow said:I think that Teflon PCBs are great for low voltage applications like RIAA MM and MC preamps due to Teflon's good damping, and I use Teflon PCBs for line amps as well
It is a bit more expensive than FR4 but it is an easy way to dampen the PCB from vibrations.
Silver as tracks on a PCB can be done rather easily. Maybe a layer of gold on top of the siver to protect it from "oxidaton" is the ultimate PCB?
The gold might even help to make the sound a bit warmer compared to pure silver if one wants a warmer sound.
Sigurd
I think a point-to-point wired amolifier (no circuit board) would be the optimal solution. Wired with e.g. silver wire. I have another proposal for taking this concept as far as posible:
The circuitry must be encapsulated in a box, and air must be removed. Thatmeans, the point-to-point wired curcuit operates in vacuum.
You get rid of the non-optimum dielectric of Teflon boards, and you also get rid of the non-optimum dielectric of air.
Rolv-Karsten Rønningstad
Courage, this thread is simply a merry-go-round meant for gauging interest in the BT through a never-ending sequence of charade-like distance learning tutorials and fun-filled pillow fights, just to keep you on your toes. Measurements and numbers would break the spell, indeed.
Regards,
Milan
Regards,
Milan
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