Sometimes people think that a retail price of 20 000 USD or more for a line amp would make the designer a rich man, but when reading what
Jonathan wrote this in another post from 2003, one can see that this is not the case:
"I have a commercial preamp (Connoisseur 4.0) which retails for somewhere in the general vicinity of 20,000 USD, and my cost for the electrical parts alone is far, far greater than 500 Euros. The chassis, associated metal work and cabinetry are likewise _very_ much higher than 500 Euros. Perhaps manufacturing costs in Japan are more expensive than in other countries, but I think that you grossly overestimate the profit margin for an audio electronic manufacturer (at least in my case)."
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16363&perpage=10&highlight=&pagenumber=2
With a retail price fp 20k USD I guess one does not sell that many units.
Johnathan continues:
"Completely out of the question. If I had that kind of spare cash - and that is a very big if - undoubtedly I would invest it on a new development project. Only the development cycle of a new amplifier will typically eat up around 150,000 USD, and when gearing up for the production of a new design, parts need to be purchased in serious quantities - in my case I find that I need to allocate at least 100,000 USD for each production run . Much of this sum needs to be paid to the supplier at the time of ordering, and the delivery of the parts is usually delayed by 8~12 weeks. Then the production means another delay, and shipping, promotion and sales each incur additional delays. In many cases, I won't start to see a return on that 100,000 USD investment until perhaps 6 months have passed. And then I need to start paying back or recouping the 150,000USD debt that I ran up during the development cycle."
and
"In my opinion, it takes years of diligent study, thinking and work to pick up the skills required to design audio products that multiple markets regard as being among the world's very best. Meanwhile, you need to eat and get the rent paid, so it is easier if you can manage to pick up an advanced technical foundation during high-school and university, rather than after you become a (supposedly) self-sufficient adult."
Best
Sigurd
Jonathan wrote this in another post from 2003, one can see that this is not the case:
"I have a commercial preamp (Connoisseur 4.0) which retails for somewhere in the general vicinity of 20,000 USD, and my cost for the electrical parts alone is far, far greater than 500 Euros. The chassis, associated metal work and cabinetry are likewise _very_ much higher than 500 Euros. Perhaps manufacturing costs in Japan are more expensive than in other countries, but I think that you grossly overestimate the profit margin for an audio electronic manufacturer (at least in my case)."
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16363&perpage=10&highlight=&pagenumber=2
With a retail price fp 20k USD I guess one does not sell that many units.
Johnathan continues:
"Completely out of the question. If I had that kind of spare cash - and that is a very big if - undoubtedly I would invest it on a new development project. Only the development cycle of a new amplifier will typically eat up around 150,000 USD, and when gearing up for the production of a new design, parts need to be purchased in serious quantities - in my case I find that I need to allocate at least 100,000 USD for each production run . Much of this sum needs to be paid to the supplier at the time of ordering, and the delivery of the parts is usually delayed by 8~12 weeks. Then the production means another delay, and shipping, promotion and sales each incur additional delays. In many cases, I won't start to see a return on that 100,000 USD investment until perhaps 6 months have passed. And then I need to start paying back or recouping the 150,000USD debt that I ran up during the development cycle."
and
"In my opinion, it takes years of diligent study, thinking and work to pick up the skills required to design audio products that multiple markets regard as being among the world's very best. Meanwhile, you need to eat and get the rent paid, so it is easier if you can manage to pick up an advanced technical foundation during high-school and university, rather than after you become a (supposedly) self-sufficient adult."
Best
Sigurd
Jonathan,
in an earlier post of yours from 2003, http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=159542#post159542,
you mention that
"Rhodium plating is much stronger than either gold or silver, and will result in a much longer-lasting finish. But it is also more expensive than either gold or silver. I mainly use rhodium for my own products."
Rhodium price has since then gone sky high. Fortunately there are soem manyfacturers that do Rhodium plating. For ex Furutech.
Do you still find that Rhodium plated RCA/XLR/DC connectors are the best to use? and is that what we see on the back of the 4-2?
I have not tried the new Furutecg RCA chassie connectors yet, but I have taken a good look at them (and photographed them, see below), and they look very good. Design is like WBT's Next Gen.
Price is high, though.
Best Sigurd
in an earlier post of yours from 2003, http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=159542#post159542,
you mention that
"Rhodium plating is much stronger than either gold or silver, and will result in a much longer-lasting finish. But it is also more expensive than either gold or silver. I mainly use rhodium for my own products."
Rhodium price has since then gone sky high. Fortunately there are soem manyfacturers that do Rhodium plating. For ex Furutech.
Do you still find that Rhodium plated RCA/XLR/DC connectors are the best to use? and is that what we see on the back of the 4-2?
I have not tried the new Furutecg RCA chassie connectors yet, but I have taken a good look at them (and photographed them, see below), and they look very good. Design is like WBT's Next Gen.
Price is high, though.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Best Sigurd
Re: Active grounding
George: Active grounding or virtual grounding refers to a range of circuits and techniques where the ground is created not by tapping into the transformer or the center point of a filter capacitor bank, but rather is generated by active circuits. "Active circuits" in this case could be discrete, monolithic or some kind of hybrid. Nowadays, TI even makes the TLE2426, an opamp-like device specifically for this purpose which is normally used to create a ground in battery-powered circuits.
regards and hth, jonathan carr
PS. Sigurd, thanks for your mail. I haven't forgotten it, and I'll try to respond to your posts on this thread and also your mail before too much time passes
. Before that, though, I need to catch some sleep!
Panelhead said:
George: Active grounding or virtual grounding refers to a range of circuits and techniques where the ground is created not by tapping into the transformer or the center point of a filter capacitor bank, but rather is generated by active circuits. "Active circuits" in this case could be discrete, monolithic or some kind of hybrid. Nowadays, TI even makes the TLE2426, an opamp-like device specifically for this purpose which is normally used to create a ground in battery-powered circuits.
regards and hth, jonathan carr
PS. Sigurd, thanks for your mail. I haven't forgotten it, and I'll try to respond to your posts on this thread and also your mail before too much time passes
. Before that, though, I need to catch some sleep!ground issue's, an over-simplified explanation
Hello again Mr Carr,
Your answer is loud and clear but still very complex.
When you connect different devices from different brands it becomes very very very complex.
BTW do you switch signal+ground with the input selector?
do you use the groundwire of the powercord?
I'm still thinking about your previous answer.
Hello George,
I did a quick search on the web about active/virtual ground and found this interesting link
tangentsoft.net/elec/vgrounds.html
I think the problem is to find the best way to make a lot of current. Say 500mA or so.
But what to think you have a preamp with a very clean active ground and you connect it to a cd-player with a dirty digital ground???
OK don't connect it
Regards,
Johan.
Hello again Mr Carr,
Your answer is loud and clear but still very complex.
When you connect different devices from different brands it becomes very very very complex.
BTW do you switch signal+ground with the input selector?
do you use the groundwire of the powercord?
I'm still thinking about your previous answer.
Hello George,
I did a quick search on the web about active/virtual ground and found this interesting link
tangentsoft.net/elec/vgrounds.html
I think the problem is to find the best way to make a lot of current. Say 500mA or so.
But what to think you have a preamp with a very clean active ground and you connect it to a cd-player with a dirty digital ground???
OK don't connect it
Regards,
Johan.
Preamplifier vs power amplifier
Hi Jonathan and others, which component is more important with regard to sound quality: the preamplifier or power amplifier?
Chris (The Netherlands)
dazzdax@xs4all.nl
Hi Jonathan and others, which component is more important with regard to sound quality: the preamplifier or power amplifier?
Chris (The Netherlands)
dazzdax@xs4all.nl
Hi, thank for your reply. I can only concur partly with you. There are far more "decent" sounding power amps than preamps, yes. But only few terrific sounding (solid state) power amps (FM Acoustics, Viola, Boulder, Burmester, JMF Audio)! My question should be placed in the light of a high resolving true high end system: does the preamp have a greater influence on the final sound than the power amplifier or vice versa?
Chris
Chris
This is also my opinion. The main reason is (concerning line preamplifier's) the high gain stages; the presence of voltage gain factor between 10 to 20 I note by most models on the marked. The right way is to choise a voltage gain of 1 (unity gain) and low output impedance, as realize by "B1 Buffer Preamp" - see URL http://www.passdiy.com/articles.htm
Unfortunately there are too few models.
Additional error source is the choise of place for line level regulator (volume control) I must connect before and not behind the buffer. This is very important. In some cases there is at the begin of wire and I get variable sound effects depends from the position of volume control through unwanted low pass effects (parasitic capacity by lead wire to power amp)
Unfortunately there are too few models.
Additional error source is the choise of place for line level regulator (volume control) I must connect before and not behind the buffer. This is very important. In some cases there is at the begin of wire and I get variable sound effects depends from the position of volume control through unwanted low pass effects (parasitic capacity by lead wire to power amp)
tiefbassuebertr said:
This way may be "right" but it's certainly not easy to get it to sound good. Main reason is that all active devices have some intrinsic gain and to get it down to unity means negative feedback. I still have to build a cathode or source follower that sounds really good. Even if it's current sourced. A solution which allows to trade gain for low output impedance without screwing up the sound is to use a step-down transformer at output. Of course the transformer needs to be quite exceptional and obviously shouldn't carry any dc so it's a choice between a balanced circuit or parafeed. Well, this works for me. No doubt Jonathan can come up with something much better.
S/N will be slightly better at lower gain but this is usually not an issue for a line stage. When using tubes, microphony is certainly lower. The problems of followers are not universally recognised anyway. Lots of "high end" manufacturers are more than happy to use even single supply, resistively loaded followers. Yet others use opamps. "High-end" is more often than not determined by the thickness of the front panel.
What determines the quality and sound of a preamplifier? Is that in fact the follower/buffer section that is responsible for the impedance matching? Or is that the gain section? Some manufacturers are placing/hiding the gain section into resin filled modules (FM Acoustics, Goldmund, Jeff Rowland, Boulder, etc.). So this must be a very secret and vital part of the preamp.
World's most expensive preamp was the Dynaudio Arbiter from the nineties (over $100,000). Why should a preamp cost so much? Even Kondo's reference preamp is less expensive.
Chris
World's most expensive preamp was the Dynaudio Arbiter from the nineties (over $100,000). Why should a preamp cost so much? Even Kondo's reference preamp is less expensive.
Chris
dazzdax said:
Mostly because there is a market for such a device. What's the point of having money if you don't posess the world's most expensive preamp?
In the case of Dynaudio it is probably just a statement product which adds a buzz.Sadly i only have first hand impressions of units up to $10k. There are no secrets or surpises in the ones i've seen. The common theme is a front panel which has taken more thought and attention than either the attenuator or the active stage.
============================================
Quote: Preamplifier vs power amplifier Post #45
Hi Jonathan and others, which component is more important with regard to sound quality: the preamplifier or power amplifier?
Chris (The Netherlands)
dazzdax@xs4all.nl
============================================
My proposal is to make a new threat, topic:
"Sound Influence of Components by Line Preamplifiers"
because the topic here is
"Lyra Connoisseur 4-2L SE: What a masterpiece!"
Quote: Preamplifier vs power amplifier Post #45
Hi Jonathan and others, which component is more important with regard to sound quality: the preamplifier or power amplifier?
Chris (The Netherlands)
dazzdax@xs4all.nl
============================================
My proposal is to make a new threat, topic:
"Sound Influence of Components by Line Preamplifiers"
because the topic here is
"Lyra Connoisseur 4-2L SE: What a masterpiece!"
Turntable- and Tone Arm Books wanted
I am looking for books, where is to read about record player and tone arm details
so as arround the pros and cons of various technologies.
Who knows such books?
To the topic "Audio Amplifier" I have listed an overview - go to
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/soli...io-amplifier-books-overview-google-books.html
Similar overview I want to have concerning turntables.
Thank you very much for advices.
I am looking for books, where is to read about record player and tone arm details
so as arround the pros and cons of various technologies.
Who knows such books?
To the topic "Audio Amplifier" I have listed an overview - go to
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/soli...io-amplifier-books-overview-google-books.html
Similar overview I want to have concerning turntables.
Thank you very much for advices.
Omnigon RIAA
Who have heard this model against the model from follow URLs ?
Omni Gon The Final Phonostage
GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Audio Site - Omnigon - The Final Phonostage
Brakemeier (scoll down to last images)
Who have heard this model against the model from follow URLs ?
Omni Gon The Final Phonostage
GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Audio Site - Omnigon - The Final Phonostage
Brakemeier (scoll down to last images)
URL is death since a long time.This is taken from another thread (I hope you do not mind Mr Carr):
"hesener:
If you want to use a similar topology to the 4-2SE line amp, for the input I'd recommend a dual-JFET with a high Vds (40~50 volts), in addition to good noise and linearity. The 4-2SE can produce about 11V output, and the input JFETs should preferably work well with a healthy amount of Vds across it. The input JFETs' load is the low impedance of a common-base stage, so small capacitance is perhaps of less importance.
The input JFETs should also have low gate leakage currents with the operating Vds applied. Regarding gate leakage currents of JFETs in general, P-channel JFETs tend to behave better than N-channels, but FWIW, I've chosen N-channels for the inputs of the 4-2SE.
>The topology I am thinking of is a input differential pair, followed by source followers.
Hmmm. Although the 4-2SE does operate differentially, it is essentially a much-augmented folded-cascode topology, loosely similar to what the AD829 would be if it were made from discrete semiconductors and had a JFET input. And a bit more complex than what you have in mind.
How informative was the article about the circuit topology, componentry or physical structure of the 4-2SE?
regards, jonathan carr"
I found the article in Stereoplay very informative!
Here is the AD829 schematic:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Regards,
Sigurd
here is the internal circuit of AD829
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