Fourth text part...sorry if some mistake happens
Sorry, there and their.... i pronouce the same.... sometimes i write the same too...sorry.
Also if i repeat some text part.
Short time memory is disappearing in my life... do not remember the last text part i published.
But do not worry, you usually make worst mistakes....hear speakers as i do too...this is a terrible thing!
regards,
Carlos
Sorry, there and their.... i pronouce the same.... sometimes i write the same too...sorry.
Also if i repeat some text part.
Short time memory is disappearing in my life... do not remember the last text part i published.
But do not worry, you usually make worst mistakes....hear speakers as i do too...this is a terrible thing!
regards,
Carlos
fifth part, and some comments too.
Of course ESL is very good...but enormous.... good to separate room parts...as some small wall...a "biômbo" in my language...pretty when painted with chinese things on it...chinese life....black is beatifull too.
And some Headphones, having not massive diafragms works better than speakers, also have not ressonances, no absortions and no reflections too.
Put the old speaker....the same last century damn machine....the air pump!....distorter machine....must be used to magnetize screw drivers only.
I am calling the "brains" to think of it...to concentrate some time on that subject...because are loosing your time with 0.001 percent distortion...as speakers are destroying all that quality.
regards,
Carlos
Of course ESL is very good...but enormous.... good to separate room parts...as some small wall...a "biômbo" in my language...pretty when painted with chinese things on it...chinese life....black is beatifull too.
And some Headphones, having not massive diafragms works better than speakers, also have not ressonances, no absortions and no reflections too.
Put the old speaker....the same last century damn machine....the air pump!....distorter machine....must be used to magnetize screw drivers only.
I am calling the "brains" to think of it...to concentrate some time on that subject...because are loosing your time with 0.001 percent distortion...as speakers are destroying all that quality.
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
I have no intention to be precise, and have no knowledge to go into precision, but..
Beeing not deef, i can hear problems.... and some magazines and good text books already advise us about that problem.
Suonno, Italian Top Hi Fidelity Magazine (world best in the eighties) published a hi speed movie of many speaker making their job (dirty job)..... you will be impressed with the things happened with those Ceramic, Titanium, Carbon Fiber, PVC, Paper diafragm and other materials....what happened with speaker coils.
The theather i create, is simple way to show that cannot follow the complicate wave forms....it is impossible to 3 drivers....maybe with 20 special drivers, in special enclosures, with special amplifiers...better to create some new air pump.
I am doing mine..... will publish till next year July.
Is it good....NO!...today it is not good.
regards,
Carlos
Beeing not deef, i can hear problems.... and some magazines and good text books already advise us about that problem.
Suonno, Italian Top Hi Fidelity Magazine (world best in the eighties) published a hi speed movie of many speaker making their job (dirty job)..... you will be impressed with the things happened with those Ceramic, Titanium, Carbon Fiber, PVC, Paper diafragm and other materials....what happened with speaker coils.
The theather i create, is simple way to show that cannot follow the complicate wave forms....it is impossible to 3 drivers....maybe with 20 special drivers, in special enclosures, with special amplifiers...better to create some new air pump.
I am doing mine..... will publish till next year July.
Is it good....NO!...today it is not good.
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
Hi carlos !
If you look at my post:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=495793#post495793
You see attached a thd-measuring of my speakers. At 2.5khz is
crossover for tweeter, and beginning at this freq the 3rd harmonics
drops below 0.1%. (It stops at 8khz, because of measuring)
There are even better tweeters, and i don't know how much
distortion has been added by microphone and amp.
The woofers in these boxes are not exactly highend, but do their job.
So, obviously it does make sense to keep an amp far below 0.1%.
And as it matters how an amp distorts, it's not a bad idea to keep
the amp below 0.01%.
Don't forget, all distortions created by a speaker are mechanical,
means they are natural, like sound created by an instrument.
Distortions created by electronics can be very unnatural, hurting your ear...
So you have 2 possibilities, you make your amp creating natural
distortions, or distortions too low to hear.
I think, making an amp with thd of 0.00001% is nonsense, but
as this number is for playing a simple sinewave it does tell you
nothing about the real distortionlevel of an amp.
An amp can be very low distortive with a sinewave, but distort
like hell with complex signals like music.
Mike
If you look at my post:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=495793#post495793
You see attached a thd-measuring of my speakers. At 2.5khz is
crossover for tweeter, and beginning at this freq the 3rd harmonics
drops below 0.1%. (It stops at 8khz, because of measuring)
There are even better tweeters, and i don't know how much
distortion has been added by microphone and amp.
The woofers in these boxes are not exactly highend, but do their job.
So, obviously it does make sense to keep an amp far below 0.1%.
And as it matters how an amp distorts, it's not a bad idea to keep
the amp below 0.01%.
Don't forget, all distortions created by a speaker are mechanical,
means they are natural, like sound created by an instrument.
Distortions created by electronics can be very unnatural, hurting your ear...
So you have 2 possibilities, you make your amp creating natural
distortions, or distortions too low to hear.
I think, making an amp with thd of 0.00001% is nonsense, but
as this number is for playing a simple sinewave it does tell you
nothing about the real distortionlevel of an amp.
An amp can be very low distortive with a sinewave, but distort
like hell with complex signals like music.
Mike
Yes, that's totally rigth!
This is too much for the speakers.
I will attach one image, to home testing...very simple.
Using a dual voice coil speaker, one with sound on it and other as a "inverted transducer"...taking magnetic field and producing alternated voltage on its extremes.
The scope is there to people watch complex waves there.
regards,
Carlos
This is too much for the speakers.
I will attach one image, to home testing...very simple.
Using a dual voice coil speaker, one with sound on it and other as a "inverted transducer"...taking magnetic field and producing alternated voltage on its extremes.
The scope is there to people watch complex waves there.
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
Carlos,
the nature of speaker distortion and solid state distortion is quite different (try spectral analysis of both). The speaker does not mask the amp's distortion. What you hear is a superposition of both distortions, that's why the amp should add nothing. After you make enough experiments with different distortions I hope you will understand.
Best regards,
Pavel
the nature of speaker distortion and solid state distortion is quite different (try spectral analysis of both). The speaker does not mask the amp's distortion. What you hear is a superposition of both distortions, that's why the amp should add nothing. After you make enough experiments with different distortions I hope you will understand.
Best regards,
Pavel
the OScope shows nothing. linear distortion (phase, amplitude) will appear just as bad as moderately high non-linear distortion, possibly even severe depending on the speaker/crossover/environment complexity. once you test 2 equally bad looking signals you hear that the linearly distorted one will sound much better then the non-linearly distorted one.
A few points...
As one poster noted distortions sum.
So, you can actually hear the effect in some cases of surprisingly small amounts of distortion (of the right sort).
As we all know the nice lower order harmonics are reasonably invisible to the ear and sound nice anyhow.
Also, it is well known that the ear can detect signals *below* the noise floor in certain situations. So, low levels of distortion or signal for that matter are no assurance that they can not be heard.
I have a tweeter that is an order of magnitude lower in distortion than the one quoted in this thread... so that makes it all the easier to hear things that one would rather not.
Having said all this - imho many things serve to mask what is "really" going on in a system.
And, yes stereo or mono or even quad is a poor approximation of the "original event."
_-_-bear
As one poster noted distortions sum.
So, you can actually hear the effect in some cases of surprisingly small amounts of distortion (of the right sort).
As we all know the nice lower order harmonics are reasonably invisible to the ear and sound nice anyhow.
Also, it is well known that the ear can detect signals *below* the noise floor in certain situations. So, low levels of distortion or signal for that matter are no assurance that they can not be heard.
I have a tweeter that is an order of magnitude lower in distortion than the one quoted in this thread... so that makes it all the easier to hear things that one would rather not.
Having said all this - imho many things serve to mask what is "really" going on in a system.
And, yes stereo or mono or even quad is a poor approximation of the "original event."
_-_-bear
Depending on emotion you can hear sound from your brain, memory sound or generated.
And memory sound or generated sound can be the same, as the memory can provide informations to your "conscient" perception.
I imagine that we hard process the sound before the conscient perception..... some strong filtering process, some fill the blanks, some recuperate of distorted waves, as flat square not natural....something happens.
Why i imagine that:
a) You can visit people very clever, with deep know how, good musical taste, good place to hear music...and the sound reproduction awfull...and the man loving showing you the "noise machine" with pride...and you are sure the one is not stupid...so...something happened there....brain adjustment.
b) Many years ago, before the Walkman appear on earth, we used small portable radios with awfull sound...and people loved to hear them..... adjustment again.... felling bass, when no bass are founded...."creation" reference in musical memory.
I could feel that music turns me, and many others persons, deep tired when long time playing music....not matter the volume.
Some systems i cannot here...i ask people to switch off because cannot support, i turn deep nervous.
I was trying to find answers to that, asking friends and burning Neurons in my mind.
I think, and this is not definitive answer to my questions...that when too much distorted, non natural sound (without harmonics by example is not natural, as live is full of harmonie) we turn tired fast....when better sound reproduction we can hear for longer time.... this may be some "processing audio energy wasting"... some brain fatigue to translate informs in real music that will be agreable to you to hear.
In my point of view, considering that this can be true, the suspect number one is the speaker.
regards and thanks to put here your ideas, those are beeing valuable inputs to me, and to others too.
Carlos
And memory sound or generated sound can be the same, as the memory can provide informations to your "conscient" perception.
I imagine that we hard process the sound before the conscient perception..... some strong filtering process, some fill the blanks, some recuperate of distorted waves, as flat square not natural....something happens.
Why i imagine that:
a) You can visit people very clever, with deep know how, good musical taste, good place to hear music...and the sound reproduction awfull...and the man loving showing you the "noise machine" with pride...and you are sure the one is not stupid...so...something happened there....brain adjustment.
b) Many years ago, before the Walkman appear on earth, we used small portable radios with awfull sound...and people loved to hear them..... adjustment again.... felling bass, when no bass are founded...."creation" reference in musical memory.
I could feel that music turns me, and many others persons, deep tired when long time playing music....not matter the volume.
Some systems i cannot here...i ask people to switch off because cannot support, i turn deep nervous.
I was trying to find answers to that, asking friends and burning Neurons in my mind.
I think, and this is not definitive answer to my questions...that when too much distorted, non natural sound (without harmonics by example is not natural, as live is full of harmonie) we turn tired fast....when better sound reproduction we can hear for longer time.... this may be some "processing audio energy wasting"... some brain fatigue to translate informs in real music that will be agreable to you to hear.
In my point of view, considering that this can be true, the suspect number one is the speaker.
regards and thanks to put here your ideas, those are beeing valuable inputs to me, and to others too.
Carlos
I understood, but considered irrelevant, as one drop of water in the ocean..
Cannot make too much effect.
That supperposition, that adding distortion effects are very low, related the enormous amount of speaker distortion.
Those 1 Percent are some passionate measurements.... revising the measurement methods, things may go up to 5 percent easy.
And 0.01 related 5 percent..... irrelevant.
This is too much perfectionism related the entire thing...lets remove one more from 500 parts!!!!
Well, people may think this is something reasonable....i am sorry, i think this is not needed....must concentrate to speaker.
That's the conclusion i founded, and Darkferinz made me think....a lot of oxide in my brain cluthes, needing oil, but the conclusion is definitive for me.
regards,
Carlos
Cannot make too much effect.
That supperposition, that adding distortion effects are very low, related the enormous amount of speaker distortion.
Those 1 Percent are some passionate measurements.... revising the measurement methods, things may go up to 5 percent easy.
And 0.01 related 5 percent..... irrelevant.
This is too much perfectionism related the entire thing...lets remove one more from 500 parts!!!!
Well, people may think this is something reasonable....i am sorry, i think this is not needed....must concentrate to speaker.
That's the conclusion i founded, and Darkferinz made me think....a lot of oxide in my brain cluthes, needing oil, but the conclusion is definitive for me.
regards,
Carlos
We can try some ideas, here is one, not too much ridiculous
You see in the images that i put 2 small speaker fixed in a frame...small speaker are better than big ones, related distortions, as the weigth in movement is lower than the bigger ones.
You can avoid the diafragm, the big diagragm i put in the center, as it is boering to adjust, and sometimes the papper is damaged.
You can put one speaker against the other, working in counter phase, can be connected internally by a ligthweigth tube or not.
One small class A amplifier, will have the best world coupling...the speaker will be in series with the colector...so...DC will make that speaker to move.... you need a second DC supply to compensate that DC that was flowing in the first speaker....creating a counter force that will put diagragm (if you use it) or speaker cones in the resting position again.
Sounds interesting...not so good, as the diafragm is hard to adjust...two speakers inter-connected by ligthweigth tubes sounds great.
We have to do something!
regards,
Carlos
You see in the images that i put 2 small speaker fixed in a frame...small speaker are better than big ones, related distortions, as the weigth in movement is lower than the bigger ones.
You can avoid the diafragm, the big diagragm i put in the center, as it is boering to adjust, and sometimes the papper is damaged.
You can put one speaker against the other, working in counter phase, can be connected internally by a ligthweigth tube or not.
One small class A amplifier, will have the best world coupling...the speaker will be in series with the colector...so...DC will make that speaker to move.... you need a second DC supply to compensate that DC that was flowing in the first speaker....creating a counter force that will put diagragm (if you use it) or speaker cones in the resting position again.
Sounds interesting...not so good, as the diafragm is hard to adjust...two speakers inter-connected by ligthweigth tubes sounds great.
We have to do something!
regards,
Carlos
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