I've just realised that, had I bought my sub new in 1990 it would have been £1600 (for a 12" servostatik unit). So accounting for inflation that would be around £3300 today.(I got a good deal second hand as the controller was missing). Now I am not a sub officianado so this may have been gouging at the time, but does make me think how many subs these days have to be horribly underengineered to hit the price points?
Because subs work over a very restricted frequency range, they normally don’t need to have large power amplifiers.
This does not excuse shoddy design/workmanship.
To understand this intuitively, consider a 2 tone IMD test. You cannot put both stimulus signals in at full input sensitivity because you will overload the amp - it goes into clipping.
My 100 W B&W sub draws 50W max from the plug point.
This does not excuse shoddy design/workmanship.
To understand this intuitively, consider a 2 tone IMD test. You cannot put both stimulus signals in at full input sensitivity because you will overload the amp - it goes into clipping.
My 100 W B&W sub draws 50W max from the plug point.
There is no excuse for any of this - just outright greed.
(below) is under 40$ in semi's.
The input stage uses less current than most op-amps - needs no heatsinks.
Use any 100V to-92's and any 150V to-126 devices.
The output stage has been built and lasts 30 years - it is my old HK
integrated amp EF3 (AKA "slewmaster").
Assured >50ppm full power 20 - 150hz @2R load.
R13/C7/D3 "trick" allows for all day clipping (till doomsday).
I was looking at the M&K woofers and some of parts express's better
offerings. Why would you pair a POS dayton plate amp or any of
these OEM outsourced garbage amps with such nice drivers. The only
good thing I have seen today was that BK plate amp.
OS
(below) is under 40$ in semi's.
The input stage uses less current than most op-amps - needs no heatsinks.
Use any 100V to-92's and any 150V to-126 devices.
The output stage has been built and lasts 30 years - it is my old HK
integrated amp EF3 (AKA "slewmaster").
Assured >50ppm full power 20 - 150hz @2R load.
R13/C7/D3 "trick" allows for all day clipping (till doomsday).
I was looking at the M&K woofers and some of parts express's better
offerings. Why would you pair a POS dayton plate amp or any of
these OEM outsourced garbage amps with such nice drivers. The only
good thing I have seen today was that BK plate amp.
OS
Attachments
Been staying away from the whole powered speaker market, apparently for good reasons. Where does the heat go? How do they cram all that in there? Smoke & mirrors apparently.
BTW the only one I know of good to 20 HZ x00 W 24/7 is a Petersen electro-music products device costing $2000. http://www.petersonemp.com/products/pdf/LOWNOTETONE.PDF
Made for filling up cathedrals with 32' sound for congregations that don't have $20000 for a real rank, or the cube necessary for a real wooden bourden rank. All the 18" Peavey etc I know of roll off @ 40 hz.
I play piano. Through psycho-acoustics (beat freqnencies of wound wire) my $3600 sohmer console plays down to 27.5 hz. I should expect less of my speaker? I play organ, too. The H182 goes down to 65.4 with a 15" woofer.
BTW the only one I know of good to 20 HZ x00 W 24/7 is a Petersen electro-music products device costing $2000. http://www.petersonemp.com/products/pdf/LOWNOTETONE.PDF
Made for filling up cathedrals with 32' sound for congregations that don't have $20000 for a real rank, or the cube necessary for a real wooden bourden rank. All the 18" Peavey etc I know of roll off @ 40 hz.
I play piano. Through psycho-acoustics (beat freqnencies of wound wire) my $3600 sohmer console plays down to 27.5 hz. I should expect less of my speaker? I play organ, too. The H182 goes down to 65.4 with a 15" woofer.
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Class D , of course. B& W is expensive.
Nice "icepower" layout in the B/W plates (below).
OS
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They have some quality stuff. My BK BSPBV 500 plate amps haven’t missed a beat in over a decade. 500w into 4R
Overkill maybe but I don’t see myself replacing them anytime soon. They even have TO-3 output devices... Mine arrived in MDF boxes that I still use to this day to store stuff in.The PS1000 amp schematic is poor. Does explain why it couldn’t drive an Aliante 12 ltd subwoofer. Another great thing about the PS1000 was that the ports chuffed. Give me BK sub any day!
Guess thats before they outsourced to China. This is from an M&K SB8. Nice cabinet, nice drive unit, but the electronics are shite! The owner is happy to pay me ~£100 to build replacement electronics. I was actually tempted to just get some class D module...
I opened up my B&W ASW610. Its beautifully made inside. There's and input/signal conditioning/DSP board (all SMD) and output of that feeds into a single B&O ICE board that integrates a 45W Class D amp and SMPSU. Lots of foam around the interconnect cables etc to prevent rattling etc. The tag on the back says 'Designed in the UK, Manufactured in China
I paid £500 for it new - I don't feel ripped off having looked inside.
I paid £500 for it new - I don't feel ripped off having looked inside.
(below) is what you paid for. That woofer is one of the best OEM's I've seen.I opened up my B&W ASW610. Its beautifully made inside. There's and input/signal conditioning/DSP board (all SMD) and output of that feeds into a single B&O ICE board that integrates a 45W Class D amp and SMPSU. Lots of foam around the interconnect cables etc to prevent rattling etc. The tag on the back says 'Designed in the UK, Manufactured in China
I paid £500 for it new - I don't feel ripped off having looked inside.
To buy this , I would have to spend nearly 200$ for a dayton ultimax 10".
After I have bought all my parts , I will have 2 subs for 100$.
But not a ASW610 with that nice woofer , surprised they only have a
45w amp powering that.
Ohh , that is "woofer porn" -
OS
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Hey
The racial slur in the first post should be culled.
A worse "scam" than the "subwoofers" cited are those from Velodyne. Velodyne made its mark with using an accelerometer mounted on the driver cone to reduce distortion. Well, the truth of what it does and why it was done this way is quite different, being a means to cut the required cabinet size in half.
An example of the Velofyne marketing hype - which one might rightly call lies - is with their 12" 100W model. The STK module inside is only rated for 70W at 0.3% THD. The overall THD for the unit was about the same. However, measuring the THD of the acoustic output - very difficult and not done by me - is about 6%, which is no better than the raw driver in a proper box.
Anther issue with so-called "subwoofers" is that they are not actually subwoofers; rather, they are woofers in a separate box. A full-range cabinet goes down to 20Hz and subs are supposed to be sub-audio, going from 20Hz down. The lowest note on a pipe organ is 16Hz which will make your ears flutter but you can feel it through your body. The harmonics of the note are more important anyway.
I believe the boxes used for all "subwoofers" manufactured in the recent decade are under-sized and tend to produce a very artifical disconnected bass noise. The amplifiers in them merely have to be robust and it is the only place in audio where class-D is acceptable. Pure class-B works well here as ilde heat can be zero and the response is rolled off by 80Hz anyway - if it extends much further THD should be better than for a simple sub. And also, with response above 80Hz you really should have two subs with separate electrical signals since bass is directional.
The racial slur in the first post should be culled.
A worse "scam" than the "subwoofers" cited are those from Velodyne. Velodyne made its mark with using an accelerometer mounted on the driver cone to reduce distortion. Well, the truth of what it does and why it was done this way is quite different, being a means to cut the required cabinet size in half.
An example of the Velofyne marketing hype - which one might rightly call lies - is with their 12" 100W model. The STK module inside is only rated for 70W at 0.3% THD. The overall THD for the unit was about the same. However, measuring the THD of the acoustic output - very difficult and not done by me - is about 6%, which is no better than the raw driver in a proper box.
Anther issue with so-called "subwoofers" is that they are not actually subwoofers; rather, they are woofers in a separate box. A full-range cabinet goes down to 20Hz and subs are supposed to be sub-audio, going from 20Hz down. The lowest note on a pipe organ is 16Hz which will make your ears flutter but you can feel it through your body. The harmonics of the note are more important anyway.
I believe the boxes used for all "subwoofers" manufactured in the recent decade are under-sized and tend to produce a very artifical disconnected bass noise. The amplifiers in them merely have to be robust and it is the only place in audio where class-D is acceptable. Pure class-B works well here as ilde heat can be zero and the response is rolled off by 80Hz anyway - if it extends much further THD should be better than for a simple sub. And also, with response above 80Hz you really should have two subs with separate electrical signals since bass is directional.
"Grifters" can also be American (more so - they are the marketers).
So grifters pal up with grifters across the globe - Globalism.
The slur is ultimately on the end consumer (and the planet) ,
who the grifters actually count on to be uninformed and gullible.
And so the cycle goes on ,
in a mad race to the bottom of the barrel .
OS
So grifters pal up with grifters across the globe - Globalism.
The slur is ultimately on the end consumer (and the planet) ,
who the grifters actually count on to be uninformed and gullible.
And so the cycle goes on ,
in a mad race to the bottom of the barrel
.OS
Hi OS
There is no excuse for this line: "how nice of POLK to outsource
to cost cutting chinese "grifters"."
Its presence is inciting and gives a very hurtful impression about YOU.
Do you even know how Western - Chinese tech negotiating goes? The Western company has to provide a very precise and accurate specification to acquire wht they want to receive, as the Eastern tendency is to try to make the item as affordable as possible to the buyer. If a cost-cutting measure impairs performance, life expectancy, etc, it is up to the buyer to redirect the supplier to change things. You can get whatever quality you desire from the east and they have amply demonstrated that they can improve upon Western designs that are iconic and thought to be supreme.
I am not Asian but I believe in our current times one has to be extra scrupulous about making any statement that could be deemed racially inequitable. As the originator of this thread, you can go back to the first post and remove the slur - simply remove the word "chinese" which you did not even dignify with a capital letter.
There is no excuse for this line: "how nice of POLK to outsource
to cost cutting chinese "grifters"."
Its presence is inciting and gives a very hurtful impression about YOU.
Do you even know how Western - Chinese tech negotiating goes? The Western company has to provide a very precise and accurate specification to acquire wht they want to receive, as the Eastern tendency is to try to make the item as affordable as possible to the buyer. If a cost-cutting measure impairs performance, life expectancy, etc, it is up to the buyer to redirect the supplier to change things. You can get whatever quality you desire from the east and they have amply demonstrated that they can improve upon Western designs that are iconic and thought to be supreme.
I am not Asian but I believe in our current times one has to be extra scrupulous about making any statement that could be deemed racially inequitable. As the originator of this thread, you can go back to the first post and remove the slur - simply remove the word "chinese" which you did not even dignify with a capital letter.
I never thought that on DIY Audio a post relating to the export regulations and conditions of Chinese policy would appear here as that's exactly what is a major issue on my previous public help website ( a well known one ) .
I had access to the Chinese governments policy on exports and it places the liability for any faults etc fully in the exporters hands .
China will not allow re-imports of faulty goods direct from Chinese factories .
As well as this Nauta is quite right a name was attached to conditions of service called "built to a price ".
This allows greedy non Chinese importers of Chinese goods to have the cheapest versions done up to look like the dearest versions .
I proved this personally by buying three versions of the "same " soldering station -£25/ £40/£60 which were advertised for sale in the UK .
On talking apart the cheapest one I was shocked at the lack of electrical safety internally as well as the iron itself outwardly looking good but internally dreadful.
I will not name the UK importer but the dearest version --they all had the same outer case - was the one I have as a spare to my dearer model and its the only one I would feel safe to use .
This caused quite a stir with the UK public who visited the website as well as the "Regulars " --posters who are constantly answering questions on the website all being older guys like myself every one a university graduate and one professor.
I do not like to see the UK public treated like this and I hope the same applies to those here in the USA /Australia etc.
I had access to the Chinese governments policy on exports and it places the liability for any faults etc fully in the exporters hands .
China will not allow re-imports of faulty goods direct from Chinese factories .
As well as this Nauta is quite right a name was attached to conditions of service called "built to a price ".
This allows greedy non Chinese importers of Chinese goods to have the cheapest versions done up to look like the dearest versions .
I proved this personally by buying three versions of the "same " soldering station -£25/ £40/£60 which were advertised for sale in the UK .
On talking apart the cheapest one I was shocked at the lack of electrical safety internally as well as the iron itself outwardly looking good but internally dreadful.
I will not name the UK importer but the dearest version --they all had the same outer case - was the one I have as a spare to my dearer model and its the only one I would feel safe to use .
This caused quite a stir with the UK public who visited the website as well as the "Regulars " --posters who are constantly answering questions on the website all being older guys like myself every one a university graduate and one professor.
I do not like to see the UK public treated like this and I hope the same applies to those here in the USA /Australia etc.
Your comment on sub power needs, for music at least, is right on the mark. I am powering 2 15” 8ohm sealed subs in my music only system using a Crown CDI1000. The power indicator lights will not reach the -20level on a lot of music- That’s 3 watts at 8 ohms. As loud as I’ve ever played bass, with something like Herbie Hancock, This Is The Drum or My Morning Jacket -Highly Suspicious, the -10db indicators will flicker- that’s 30watts. So a 300w amp is plenty for my needs and then some. I see a lot of DIY sub builders chasing 1kw +/driver and I wonder just how much of that they are actually using on normal program material. Better to spend your $ on the best drivers and cabinet construction than on kilowatt+ amps IME.