Hey guys, I've been thinking about my next setup. Up until now I have always ran a Decent Denon or Marantz Receiver to power all my speakers. But I'm wondering if I will get BETTER performance with a better amp??
How much power does a decent Home theater Receiver really put out to the front channels??
Is it worth upgrading to a good DSP and Amp with some real power???
part of me really wants to build some MASSIVE output front channel speakers for the movie room. Whata you guys think??
How much power does a decent Home theater Receiver really put out to the front channels??
Is it worth upgrading to a good DSP and Amp with some real power???
part of me really wants to build some MASSIVE output front channel speakers for the movie room. Whata you guys think??
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Generally one would start with an "SPL" goal to achieve. You've probably seen the charts with "jet airliner, jackhammer, vacuum cleaner, human speech, refrigerator, etc" I'm sure there's specification for some standard in HT that many agree with, for the max db SPL (a number) that the system must be able to deliver.
When you know that, i.e. a number corresponding the "MASSIVE output" you want, then - along with some knowledge about your speakers sensitivity - folks here can most easily talk about the kind of amplifier necessary to deliver those goods.
Generally, you will get "better performance with a better amp" and it is worth upgrading to DSP and an amp with more power.
When you know that, i.e. a number corresponding the "MASSIVE output" you want, then - along with some knowledge about your speakers sensitivity - folks here can most easily talk about the kind of amplifier necessary to deliver those goods.
Generally, you will get "better performance with a better amp" and it is worth upgrading to DSP and an amp with more power.
I'm an amateur musician and I've played on stage with 60 orchestra players or 120 symphonic band members. I like music of the classical genre to have the same dynamic range, from 50 db (meter) when silent to 100 with 120 pupils full out. The audiences were silent at my performances, nothing like rock or pop where everybody in the audience screamed. One performance with 120 band members, an auxillary brass section of university students was put in the balcony so that performance of Procession from Parsifal may have hit 110 db.
However, the best media reproduction around is CD with about 70 db dynamic range.
With 104 db 1w1m speakers, I ran my base level classical performances at about 1/4 W into 8 ohms. That is on pianimissimo passages. That leaves fff passages at about 50 watts to the speaker. There are very few CD's that use that much dynamic range, most are compressed, but there are a few stellar products that I enjoy. I measured my lightest amp, 120 w nominal, and got about 70 watts per channel on both channels for 5 second peaks as measured by a Simpson 266xlpm VOM. (I increased the heat sink capacity of that amp with fans).
With more typical 94 or 84 db 1w 1m speakers, you would need two times the power (100) for 94 db or 4 times the power for 84 db, or 200 W.
Of course other music sources don't have the dynamic range of classical live performances. I doubt if movie soundtracks have 40 db range. Modern pop cds have about 10 db dynamic range, and strumma strumma singer songwriter material (guitars & voice) are maybe 20.
Enjoy your performances.
However, the best media reproduction around is CD with about 70 db dynamic range.
With 104 db 1w1m speakers, I ran my base level classical performances at about 1/4 W into 8 ohms. That is on pianimissimo passages. That leaves fff passages at about 50 watts to the speaker. There are very few CD's that use that much dynamic range, most are compressed, but there are a few stellar products that I enjoy. I measured my lightest amp, 120 w nominal, and got about 70 watts per channel on both channels for 5 second peaks as measured by a Simpson 266xlpm VOM. (I increased the heat sink capacity of that amp with fans).
With more typical 94 or 84 db 1w 1m speakers, you would need two times the power (100) for 94 db or 4 times the power for 84 db, or 200 W.
Of course other music sources don't have the dynamic range of classical live performances. I doubt if movie soundtracks have 40 db range. Modern pop cds have about 10 db dynamic range, and strumma strumma singer songwriter material (guitars & voice) are maybe 20.
Enjoy your performances.
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It would be more correct to talk about sound pressure. It depends on the power of the amplifiers. To a greater extent on the efficiency of the loudspeakers. Depends on sound absorption.The level in DB is determined relative to zerolevel . Dynamic range is defined in relation to the noise at the listening position.
Cinema sound has a bit depth of 10 or 12 bits. Strongly compressed.
Bass reproduction is another story.
Cinema sound has a bit depth of 10 or 12 bits. Strongly compressed.
Bass reproduction is another story.
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For stereo music reproduction, there is a very interesting thread/poll started by Pano:
A Test. How much Voltage (power) do your speakers need?
It's a way to check what kind of voltage levels people apply to their speakers in normal use, using only a cheap multimeter as test gear. The reported levels are one quarter of the peak voltage, if I remember well.
You will also find hundreds of critical replies, almost all from people who didn't understand how the test works. I remember two criticisms that made sense, though: the actual levels could be a dB or two above the reported value due to intersample overshoots and people who use an amplifier with insufficient power for the Pano test might (in order to avoid clipping) play their music at a lower level than they would have if the amplifier had had enough power.
Some people on the thread liked to listen to uncompressed recordings of rocket launches and reported very high values, but most don't.
A Test. How much Voltage (power) do your speakers need?
It's a way to check what kind of voltage levels people apply to their speakers in normal use, using only a cheap multimeter as test gear. The reported levels are one quarter of the peak voltage, if I remember well.
You will also find hundreds of critical replies, almost all from people who didn't understand how the test works. I remember two criticisms that made sense, though: the actual levels could be a dB or two above the reported value due to intersample overshoots and people who use an amplifier with insufficient power for the Pano test might (in order to avoid clipping) play their music at a lower level than they would have if the amplifier had had enough power.
Some people on the thread liked to listen to uncompressed recordings of rocket launches and reported very high values, but most don't.
A better preamp, a better amp, a better source, better cabling, better EMI environment, better listening room.
And YOU
Uh! I forgot! better speakers, with better drivers, with the best de-coupling, the best crossover, and cabling, materials, sound absorbers, diffusers.
Uh! Better recordings
Round and round....
So for instance, the Philharmonitor BMR are only 85.0 dB (dB/2.83v/1M)
The BMR Philharmonitor
Evan a $1,000 Marantz receiver only puts out 100wrms @ 8 ohms. I don't think thats enough !!!
What do you guys use for power???
The BMR Philharmonitor
Evan a $1,000 Marantz receiver only puts out 100wrms @ 8 ohms. I don't think thats enough !!!
What do you guys use for power???
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If I had speakers that insensitive (84 db 1w1m) that I wanted to power to 200 w/ch, I'd rebuild a Peavey CS800s with issues (as I have done) or CS800x. Great protection circuits, good HD spec (.02% hd @ 240 W/ch 8 ohms), low resale price. Because my SP2-xt speakers are 104 db 1w1m I'm fine at home with a dynaco ST120 with AX6 boards and improved heat sinks to put out 70 W for 5 seconds. Which was so loud I was wearing earplugs as I measured the AC voltage with the Simpson VOM. The SP2-xt speakers were good to 300 w/ch rms and could support a stage show for an audience of 200. I play for audiences of 50 sometimes.
In the really cheap category for diy adventurers, Peavey cs800 of the A,b,c revisions were hissy at low power due to a 741 op amp at the input. An OPA604 substitution should clean that problem right up and turn one of these $100 war horses into a very accurate amp @ 240 w/ch 8 ohms (400 w/ch 4 ohms .03% hd). Faster driver transistor than available 1975 (Ft 30 mhz) may be required. Fan circuit mods should tame that noise at low power for home use.
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Not sure why your speaker maker's spec sheet does not show max power, but madisound (ScanSpeak Classic 18W/8545-01 New 7" Mid Woofer Paper Cone) shows max power for the woofer as 100W. There is some wiggle room there for peaks.
I run my 87dB setup with a 32w PP tube amp in 8R and that is way more than i need in my space. My other setup is 89dB and has a 45w transistor class AB amp and there idem. Most of the time i'm below 1w on both systems actually, but headroom is essential for good sound. But no high power amps are needed with this kind of efficiency in an average living room.
The speakers dictate everything. Most of the power in the audio is bass (hence the popularity of subwoofers). The amp only needs enough power to push the speakers out to maximum excursion. That’s generally in the 20-100W range. More than that isn’t terribly useful.
So the amp just needs to be sized to the speakers it drives.
So the amp just needs to be sized to the speakers it drives.
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