Is it possible to have an old circuit board copied? Is it legal?
I have a blank Hafler PC19c from the DH-220 amp that I would like to have copies made for my own use, not for resale. These boards are from the 1980's, would I need permission from Hafler/Rockford?
Does anyone know of a place that I could send it to?
Thanks for any help.
I have a blank Hafler PC19c from the DH-220 amp that I would like to have copies made for my own use, not for resale. These boards are from the 1980's, would I need permission from Hafler/Rockford?
Does anyone know of a place that I could send it to?
Thanks for any help.
I don't think you can just send it somewhere to have it copied, it doesn't work that way. Someone will have to transfer the layout into a CAD program to create the manufacturing files.
Probably just as easy to create a layout from the schematic and have that manufactured, in that case no issue with copyright. But probably no issue for that anyway.
Edit check eBay, there are knock-off offered for many vintage amplifiers, like here: hafler amplifier board | eBay .
Jan
Probably just as easy to create a layout from the schematic and have that manufactured, in that case no issue with copyright. But probably no issue for that anyway.
Edit check eBay, there are knock-off offered for many vintage amplifiers, like here: hafler amplifier board | eBay .
Jan
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You could scan the pcb into your pc and use that for small quantities. Otherwise its out with the PCBCAD package and design your own. Depending on the circuit you need to be very careful with pcb layout to reduce noise. Maybe the simplest way is just to copy the working pcb.
I remember my first attempt at a USB audio mixer. Just laid it out as it came. The result was 1vac of noise on output with input shorted ! I hadn't separated out power supply ground and audio ground result in 50Hz in the audio ground modulating it. With gain through the mixer the hum got huge. I relaid it out connecting audio and power supply ground only at pcb edge connector and it was noise free.
I remember my first attempt at a USB audio mixer. Just laid it out as it came. The result was 1vac of noise on output with input shorted ! I hadn't separated out power supply ground and audio ground result in 50Hz in the audio ground modulating it. With gain through the mixer the hum got huge. I relaid it out connecting audio and power supply ground only at pcb edge connector and it was noise free.
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This guy may still have some NOS boards. He bought all of Hafler's remaining stock.
Hafler DH220 DH500 PC19C Blank Driver Circuit Board NOS | #112278972
vintagelectron | eBay
If you can find a hobby pcb guy, he could do optical copies and etching/drilling.
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I bought 4 PC19c boards from Vintage Electron on Ebay back in 2014, I wish I had bought more. They are original old stock, very high quality. I've been trying to contact him lately but he doesn't respond. I've searched his Ebay store but no luck. I need 4 more. I have a total of 14 of these PC-19c boards in my 7.1 chan. surround system. Half of them are in a mono block configuration, half are stereo. All are 30+ years old and still function but, I want to restore them before they begin to fail. I'm in the process of replacing all the old parts with brand new, resistors, caps, diodes , transistors, everything. I like having brand new boards instead of removing all the old parts and re-using the old boards but if I have to I will.
Thanks for all the replies.
Thanks for all the replies.
See if there's a group of amateur radio hams in your area.
Probably at least one of them still etches boards.
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Could give this a shot, it might have limit. It says that we can collaborate. EasyEDA - Online PCB design & circuit simulator I think/hope home etching is almost done away with. Might want to change the 2n3440/2n5415 to 2SA1381/2SC3503 or do a dual footprint. I'd like to know the dimensions of the PC19c, as I might do the design myself, I recall that Bob Cordell did his DH-220C mod which is an interesting design. I try to make the pcb's 100x100mm to get the special deal. $2-3 for 10 plus shipping
Hi Phase, thx for the info. I think I would need a pcb in hand to figure out exact fastener hole positions, sizes to use.
I recently re-designed a power supply pcb for a Pioneer SX-1010 receiver. Someone sent me the pcb as a sample, so I could measure it up.
When I do pcb outlines, I try to use mm as it is easier for me to work with unless it is a round imperial number.
So you have (4-21/32")118.3mm x (4-13/32")111.9mm, nice round numbers to work with
I recently re-designed a power supply pcb for a Pioneer SX-1010 receiver. Someone sent me the pcb as a sample, so I could measure it up.
When I do pcb outlines, I try to use mm as it is easier for me to work with unless it is a round imperial number.
So you have (4-21/32")118.3mm x (4-13/32")111.9mm, nice round numbers to work with
I got caught out with imperial/ metric a while back.
I used metric to step and repeat some TQFP SMD pads.
It turned out that metric is converted to nearest imperial thou of an inch.
This accumulated errors until the 16th pad was half a pad out !!!!
Had to bin the pcb's when they came as useless.
I see these rounding errors when I build a part in mm and do the layout in imperial.
Funny how I always used KK100, KK156 connectors (Tyco call them MTA100,156), I recently find out, Molex re-named them to KK254 & KK396 Some doc's show the old number, some show the new number. Molex or the new breed are even messing with my mind = Idiots, like the Humbel did not teach them anything.
I always design in mil, I am old school, brain works that way and libraries are built in what ever the spec shows. Usually in mm. Pads are std drill increments of 5 mil. Placement outline is usually 25 mil, not 0.635mm
I think with orcad it is something like 0.01 mil rounding error, even the resolution they show in some menus round to 0.1 so you do not see it until you look further, using a different menu.
Most my stuff is 100x100mm, so I do the board outline, switch to mm and back, they show 99.99, I just edit it in the fab drawing layer
When in question, I always do measurements in layout and gerber viewer to make extra sure I or the tool did not mess up. You know check, check and check again or you could be screwed, even then **** happens, Murphy wins again Cheers mate.
Back to this thread, if someone wants me to duplicate this Hafler pcb, send a sample of it to me (PM me), so I can do it. I will get some pcb's made up, send some of them & your sample back to you.
Funny how I always used KK100, KK156 connectors (Tyco call them MTA100,156), I recently find out, Molex re-named them to KK254 & KK396
Some doc's show the old number, some show the new number. Molex or the new breed are even messing with my mind = Idiots, like the Humbel did not teach them anything.I always design in mil, I am old school, brain works that way and libraries are built in what ever the spec shows. Usually in mm. Pads are std drill increments of 5 mil. Placement outline is usually 25 mil, not 0.635mm
No where near enough resolution for a conversion.
I think with orcad it is something like 0.01 mil rounding error, even the resolution they show in some menus round to 0.1 so you do not see it until you look further, using a different menu.
Most my stuff is 100x100mm, so I do the board outline, switch to mm and back, they show 99.99, I just edit it in the fab drawing layer
When in question, I always do measurements in layout and gerber viewer to make extra sure I or the tool did not mess up. You know check, check and check again or you could be screwed, even then **** happens, Murphy wins again
Cheers mate.Back to this thread, if someone wants me to duplicate this Hafler pcb, send a sample of it to me (PM me), so I can do it. I will get some pcb's made up, send some of them & your sample back to you.
Somone already did it, no soldermask, no silkscreen, it's a copy alright.
NOS HAFLER PC-19C (PC-19) Bare/Blank Driver Board (DH500, DH-500, DH220, DH-220) | eBay
NOS HAFLER PC-19C (PC-19) Bare/Blank Driver Board (DH500, DH-500, DH220, DH-220) | eBay
Get the freeware PCBExpress. Make a 1:1 PNG image of the board and download it 100% to Paint. Paint will give you the XY coordinates in pixels when you mouseover, PCBExpress will give you inches when you mouseover.
If you have paint in one window and PCBExpres in the other you can quickly convert an image to a PCBExpress board. They are quick and not too expensive.
If you have paint in one window and PCBExpres in the other you can quickly convert an image to a PCBExpress board. They are quick and not too expensive.
Some PCB software, such as Eagle, lets you work in either metric or Imperial with no improper rounding nonsense. Just switch the grid and you can work in whichever unit you like. Regardless, the results will be rounded to the final output Gerber resolution anyway, but as long as the internal resolution is higher than the output resolution and there are no accumulated errors, there should be no reason to have roundoff issues from accumulated roundoff errors.
Many SMD packages are defined with metric units now, but most PCB houses use Gerber files with Imperial units, rounded to some number of digits. So, the conversion has to happen somewhere, and as long as the dimensions are properly rounded at the final output, nothing bad happens. The PCB manufacturing process has tolerances and errors anyway, but as long as they do not accumulate, you can still get work done despite finite resolution.
The odd thing about metric vs. Imperial is that there's actually an exact conversion between the two. But, again, there are always tolerances on every dimension and every manufacturing process. So, there's no reason to be forced to use one unit system over another - you need to use both in practice.
Many SMD packages are defined with metric units now, but most PCB houses use Gerber files with Imperial units, rounded to some number of digits. So, the conversion has to happen somewhere, and as long as the dimensions are properly rounded at the final output, nothing bad happens. The PCB manufacturing process has tolerances and errors anyway, but as long as they do not accumulate, you can still get work done despite finite resolution.
The odd thing about metric vs. Imperial is that there's actually an exact conversion between the two. But, again, there are always tolerances on every dimension and every manufacturing process. So, there's no reason to be forced to use one unit system over another - you need to use both in practice.
An option and an easy one.
place the PCB on a glass with a light behind it. take a photograph from above . all the traces will appear dark. From same position, switch off the light and take another photo, all the silk will be visible clearly. Do not disturb the camera position in-between.
Import the pictures in sprint layout and adjust the scale of the image to match PCB size.
Start drawing and use standard packages and adjust trace widths approximately (make them slightly bigger if you like). Run DRC to check for clearances based on supply voltage.
Once you are satisfied , take print of sprint image/pdf to scale and compare with actual PCB against light.
Generate gerbers and send for manufacturing protos.
regards
Prasi
place the PCB on a glass with a light behind it. take a photograph from above . all the traces will appear dark. From same position, switch off the light and take another photo, all the silk will be visible clearly. Do not disturb the camera position in-between.
Import the pictures in sprint layout and adjust the scale of the image to match PCB size.
Start drawing and use standard packages and adjust trace widths approximately (make them slightly bigger if you like). Run DRC to check for clearances based on supply voltage.
Once you are satisfied , take print of sprint image/pdf to scale and compare with actual PCB against light.
Generate gerbers and send for manufacturing protos.
regards
Prasi
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