I've done that much. I don't have measuring equipment to measure output. My 52 year old ears stop receiving much beyond 14k, according to youtube hearing tests. Yet I'm able to hear test tones quite audibly up to 18k. Not sure what that means. But 20K and beyond is absolute silence.
I can look up the specs for my sound card, but I was rather hoping that in the Solid State forum of Diyaudio someone might help me determine if most off the shelf amplifiers (I'm using a spare that's gathering dust... a Radio Shack STA-7 receiver) is capable of transmitting beyond 20k. I also have an old Hitachi integrated 40w/ch to use as well.
I want to feed a 22hz signal, at maximum decibel available from the amp's power, to a piezo tweeter.
This is the Radio Shack spec from an old catalog. Claimed 30k. Only 10 watts. What kind of DB could I expect, without concern for distortion, out of a piezo tweeter like this...
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
GRS PZ1016 2" x 5" Piezo Horn Tweeter Similar to KSN1016A 292-440
You cannot require it for listening purposes because the human ear does not hear that high. At 18k we can feel sound pressure but not tone, unless the ears are very young.
22kHz warble works well as a crow scarer and cat repellent. The piezo horn will deliver a fair amount of sound pressure at Ultra Sonic frequencies and distortion is built in by way of the nature of the piezo machine.
Many years ago I lost everything above 12k on one ear and 8k, (due to tinnitus) in the other. That was caused by my development of crow scarers!
Most power amplifiers will pass a 30kHz signal with little attenuation.
Some will pass 300kHz with little attenuation.
A sound card with the same sampling frequency as CD, i.e. 44.1ksamples per second, cannot pass more than 22kHz and most will roll off 1kHz to 4kHz below that.
There are now many high speed sound cards that will output >>20kHz.
Some will pass 300kHz with little attenuation.
A sound card with the same sampling frequency as CD, i.e. 44.1ksamples per second, cannot pass more than 22kHz and most will roll off 1kHz to 4kHz below that.
There are now many high speed sound cards that will output >>20kHz.
You don't necessarily need to hear (or see, on an oscilloscope) the signal to determine its presence or its level. Make a simple peak detector from a 1N4148 diode, followed by a 0.1uF cap and 1 meg resistor in parallel. This will give you a DC output proportional to the AC coming in, even at 22kHz. Turn up the volume knob until the level quits increasing and you know you've reached clipping. No need to drive beyond that. Or if you need less than full power you can back off. Peak to RMS is about a factor of 1.4.
The 10W amp will probably be ok, but for many piezos the 40W might cook it. They can't take as much voltage at 20k as they do broadband because they do draw a little current up there.
Can you elaborate on that? How could fiddling with frequencies beyond our human range damage your hearing? Second order harmonics?
Ok, I'll bite... this is for a barking control device. And if you have any warnings I might find heedful I'd very very appreciative. I did not want to mention the goal since the thread then devolves into a lot of OT SPCA "how could you take it out on the animal" sort of stuff.
There is a suitable forum somewhere on the net for exactly that. I'm here purely for the technical questions so please respect that.
Next door neighbor's white haired mutt terrier mix will NOT leave me alone in my own yard. Whether his masters are home or not, as soon as I step foot outside my door he races across his lawn to the edge of his electric collar enclosure and barks incessantly at me.... and any guests I may have over. I am absolutely unwilling to call the police, animal control or, however diplomatically, his owners. If they don't see a problem by now, they're only going to be a$$holes about it and cause more grief for me.
So. I don't want anything too sophisticated. Just a 22khz tone, either pure or intentionally irritating to animals if I could find such a .wav file, and a button next to the garage door opener. I don't want to 'retrain' the little guy to stop barking. I just want to make him understand that you don't fu(in& bark at ME all day long.
So, a 22k .wav file. Played via my hp mini. Probably better to find a method of interfacing my USB output with the integrated amp since, correct me if I'm wrong, USB is pure digital unlimited by the sound cards processing. And the most efficient, highest specified freq response, piezo tweeter.
His owners would never know. I'm not hurting him (unless he inexplicably charges the tweeter and holds his ear to it for five minutes).
I like the elegance of the solution... If I could make it work. When he barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks,
barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks,
barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks,
barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks,
barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks,
barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks,
barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks,
barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks, barks,
I press a button next to the garage door opener and he retreats. Back in one minute to commence barking sequence.
Press button. Back in five minutes to commence barking.
Press button. Back in ten minutes to commence barking.
He'll learn.
I've got nothing but time to do this while I'm working on my truck or motorcycle or weeding or pruning or relaxing in my own yard.
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Hi -
no technical answer for you but I feel your pain. In my case the owner is cool, but the dog is just wacked. A similar little white terrier like thingy. The owner tried several times to introduce/acclimate the dog to me and it manages to growl and snarl and show its teeth and wag it's tail all at the same time. Crazy dog!
When the owner is not home and I am in the back yard it barks continously. It stands just inside his front door and starts barking as soon as I walk up to my front door. At least in my case, when the dog is inside his home, and I am inside my home, I can't hear him.
But when I am in my back yard, I hear him. I know he wants to get me! Crazy dog! My neighbor must really love his dog because all I see is a crazy dog! I smile and say ...oh isn't he cute...being very careful with my fingers. I wish you the best of luck-
no technical answer for you but I feel your pain. In my case the owner is cool, but the dog is just wacked. A similar little white terrier like thingy. The owner tried several times to introduce/acclimate the dog to me and it manages to growl and snarl and show its teeth and wag it's tail all at the same time. Crazy dog!
When the owner is not home and I am in the back yard it barks continously. It stands just inside his front door and starts barking as soon as I walk up to my front door. At least in my case, when the dog is inside his home, and I am inside my home, I can't hear him.
But when I am in my back yard, I hear him. I know he wants to get me! Crazy dog! My neighbor must really love his dog because all I see is a crazy dog! I smile and say ...oh isn't he cute...being very careful with my fingers. I wish you the best of luck-
Interesting. I found the neighbor's dog that liked to bark all night responded to training induced by dilute ammonia water sprayed over the fence.
I'm also trying to build a 44 khz oscillator speaker contraption to install in my organ to discourage mice from building nests in it and eating all the insulation off the wires. I'm using a crystal oscillator, a CMOS schmitt trigger IC, and a 7 decade cmos divider to produce the signal voltage. Project is on hold while I try to repair my B&K 2120 scope where the sweep quit (probably dried up e-caps) and the boards are glued in to prevent tampering by radio-TV school students.
I'm also trying to build a 44 khz oscillator speaker contraption to install in my organ to discourage mice from building nests in it and eating all the insulation off the wires. I'm using a crystal oscillator, a CMOS schmitt trigger IC, and a 7 decade cmos divider to produce the signal voltage. Project is on hold while I try to repair my B&K 2120 scope where the sweep quit (probably dried up e-caps) and the boards are glued in to prevent tampering by radio-TV school students.
Yeah, quite similar. The owner put up the electric fence by 'suggestion' from the police. The (looks like a ragmop) mutt would charge anyone he saw walking past the driveway, sending them out into the traffic in the street. Walkers, joggers, kids, women with babies in strollers... didn't go over well with the neighborhood. Again, the owners witness this for months before someone, probably one of the ladies with babes, called the police. Only then did they install the electric fence. Otherwise, through each of these incidents that I witness the owners never once attempted to discipline or train the dog. If I tried to 'reason' with them diplomatically they'd probably just toss dogshit into my yard in revenge and start a feud.
I too tried the friendly approach with the "Eddie". I tossed him bacon one day and he happily horsed it down. I'm convinced he horsed it down in two gulps so that he could commence barking, inexplicably, ever more ferociously. So much for the buddy thing. A few months later I tried again. Freshly backed chicken breast. I tossed him about half of one in shreds. Same scenario. Crazy damn thing. It only seemed to make him angrier. Some whack animal behaviouralist somewhere I'm sure would tell me this is his primitive way of showing affection or playfulness. Not buying that. I got too close to a terrier at another friends' home many years ago and the damn little thing tore a six inch ragged gash in my blue jeans before the owner could pull him off of me.
The simile "like a terrier" is an apt one after all. I'm just not making friends with this fella unless he sees his owners hugging and kissing me. That's not in the works.
I wish there were more concrete analysis or documented study on the effectiveness of sound deterrents. 99 percent of any info on the net is generated in the sales and marketing dept. Tiny bits are anecdotal, like form entries or customer reviews on the product sales page. Youtube videos purport to show them in action. Half of the videos debunk them, the other half raves over them.
Among the anecdotal debunkings was a suggestion that the various and overlapping ultrasonic (beyond human range) crap that was generated by yesterday's cathode tube television sets never seemed to discourage mice and vermin from nesting in them. And most (all?) animals will acclimate surprisingly well to discomfort, audio or otherwise. Lots of stories about getting a television in the house for the first time back in the sixties and the dog hiding in terror from the shrieking frequencies it was loosing. In a couple of days the dog was happily sitting on the rug in front of it with the rest of the family. Maybe he just lost that range of hearing? Didn't mind it any more?
Point made in some of these discussions is that it's got to be somewhat dynamic to be effective. Some sort of temperature or sound activation with a limited timeout like 10 to 15 seconds. Otherwise the animal, pest, just acclimates itself to it.
Again, who knows? Little to none-at-all real world testing done on these things despite that it's a multi-billion dollar industry with all of the pest control wall plugs, battery operated gizmos, industrial 'farm-grade' contraptions, dog repellents, etc.
Here's an interesting selection from what looks like a legit company....
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odk...c+cannon&_nkw=kemo+ultrasonic+cannon&_sacat=0
The "cannon" first listed has a few youtube videos available. As far as its effectiveness there are random cagey disclaimers about what it may be capable of if it were actually to be used as advertised. Turns out that this little dodge is to keep the video legal and up on youtube's site despite the fact that these anti-bark dog-repellent devices are illegal in a few states.
And that might explain why there is so little legit testing done on them?
That's worth a try. Don't want to do anything with any remote possibility to do harm though. I've wanted soooo many times to plug him in the a$$ with a very weak 40 year old daisy bb gun, but the fear of taking an eye out stops me. Could ammonia harm him? How dilute? Windex is just dilute ammonia. Windex dilute?
Funny that. I did manage one evening to walk casually up to the property line with a pump sprayer filled with a three year old mix of eggs, yeast, milk, and some chicken parts, used to repel deer from gardens. I actually stopped using it because it was like skunk X10 and drove me out of my yard when I used it. I soaked him. He ran off angrily and was back in 10 seconds. I soaked him a good one. Back again. Soaked him again. Guess what? He started snorting amorously and ROLLING IN IT! This was better than bacon strips I guess. But when the owners got home I'm sure they were in for a nice time of it as he rampaged through the home.
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Try peanut butter.
It's sad to say, but I have no respect for people that allow their dogs to bark uncontrollably. It not only shows blatant disregard for their neighbors, but somebody will likely shoot or poison the dog eventually.
My neighbor's dog used to bark like mad at me and one day I flipped the fence and pinned him down by the throat and yelled at him until he peed. After that he would bark maybe once and as soon as I looked at him he would shut up. We got along fine after that. We ended up buddies.
It's sad to say, but I have no respect for people that allow their dogs to bark uncontrollably. It not only shows blatant disregard for their neighbors, but somebody will likely shoot or poison the dog eventually.
My neighbor's dog used to bark like mad at me and one day I flipped the fence and pinned him down by the throat and yelled at him until he peed. After that he would bark maybe once and as soon as I looked at him he would shut up. We got along fine after that. We ended up buddies.
I had a dog repelleant once that I didn't even bother to make inaudible to humans. 3.5 KHz into a KSN1005 at around 30 volts RMS. That's right - resonant frequency for maximum output with minimum power. And right in the peak response of the ear. 9 volt battery, CMOS oscillator, switching transistors and a step up transformer. Built into what looked like a crude ray gun made out of PVC parts with the piezo at the business end. I had dogs that would grab on and try to pull me off my bike on the way to class. I'd whip out the Disrputor, point it directly into his face (while attached to my pants leg), pull the trigger and he'd run like hell. If somebody heard it and got to watch, all the better. The alternative would have been a baseball bat.
The 25 Khz version was for armadillos and cats - to keep them out of the garden. Worked pretty good. But that's when I found out that piezos won't take that input level at those frequencies. Had to turn it down.
We just got rid of a neighbor whose dog barked and barked and barked and barked. It never was a threat to anyone (just bored), but it sure was annoying. The hose would stop it - temporarily. They moved away (job), and everyone was relieved.
The 25 Khz version was for armadillos and cats - to keep them out of the garden. Worked pretty good. But that's when I found out that piezos won't take that input level at those frequencies. Had to turn it down.
We just got rid of a neighbor whose dog barked and barked and barked and barked. It never was a threat to anyone (just bored), but it sure was annoying. The hose would stop it - temporarily. They moved away (job), and everyone was relieved.
Don't know if ultrasonic 44 khz repels mice, but for $6 for the transducer and $1.50 for the other parts I'll try it. I'm not buying anything from the country that counterfeits QC paperwork on infant formula; who knows if your highly advertised ultrasonic repeller even works, until you put a mike and a scope on it. At least this 44 khz transducer was sold by mouser and shows made in ROC, without the leading P. I plan to use the 8 flop countdown chain and a nor gate decoder to make the ultrasound beep 1/2 second out of every 8 or 16 or something, to increase the annoyance level. Speaker is a kobitone 193495 btw.
If you buy an advertised system with no detectable to humans effect, you may as well build it IMHO. I do know, a radio left on all winter, and a bottle of lysol (carbolic acid) with a wick in it doesn't repel mice. This year, until the ultrasound is done, I duct-taped tin can cuttings in all the holes in the tab box.
The ammonia I used to spray the dog that barked all night wasn't too concentrated, it just smelled bad to me, and dogs have about 10000x stronger sense of smell than we do. Rotten stuff attracts them, have seen a pedigree dog roll in ****, but the ammonia worked. After I used the garden sprayer with ammonia water a few times at 2 AM, all I had to do was walk out of the house and he would shut up.
Nice story wg-ski about the 3500 hz portable dog repeller. I hadn't thought of that. I've trained myself to throw rocks when I ride my bicycle and get chased. I can't throw a rock big enough to hurt a dog at age 63, but they have some sort of conditioned fear of a rock thrown at them. I learned when I was a teenager, swinging a security chain at a dog doesn't phase them at all. Last month a dog about 2' from my ankle I bonked on the nose with a rock , he hasn't been a problem since. His cousin down the road, (same appearance) In July I fell off the bike trying to avoid his bite and the 2 liter bottles (full) in my basket fell on him. Ruined three spokes in my bike wheel, but no more trouble with that dog, either; he still barks but keeps his distance.
If you buy an advertised system with no detectable to humans effect, you may as well build it IMHO. I do know, a radio left on all winter, and a bottle of lysol (carbolic acid) with a wick in it doesn't repel mice. This year, until the ultrasound is done, I duct-taped tin can cuttings in all the holes in the tab box.
The ammonia I used to spray the dog that barked all night wasn't too concentrated, it just smelled bad to me, and dogs have about 10000x stronger sense of smell than we do. Rotten stuff attracts them, have seen a pedigree dog roll in ****, but the ammonia worked. After I used the garden sprayer with ammonia water a few times at 2 AM, all I had to do was walk out of the house and he would shut up.
Nice story wg-ski about the 3500 hz portable dog repeller. I hadn't thought of that. I've trained myself to throw rocks when I ride my bicycle and get chased. I can't throw a rock big enough to hurt a dog at age 63, but they have some sort of conditioned fear of a rock thrown at them. I learned when I was a teenager, swinging a security chain at a dog doesn't phase them at all. Last month a dog about 2' from my ankle I bonked on the nose with a rock , he hasn't been a problem since. His cousin down the road, (same appearance) In July I fell off the bike trying to avoid his bite and the 2 liter bottles (full) in my basket fell on him. Ruined three spokes in my bike wheel, but no more trouble with that dog, either; he still barks but keeps his distance.
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You want to keep mice out of your organ? Toss a few moth balls into the thing. Mice hate that. Ask any storage facility operator what keep mice out of the storage units, I bet they agree.
Why would they bother to do any research when they can sell millions of dollars worth of useless plastic crap without even trying? The public will buy anything.
Don't over-anthropomorphise the dog. The dog is not reasoning out strategies. He isn't wolfing down the food to get back to barking, he wolfs down the food because he feels the need to bark and the food deters it. If flood waters were rising around your home and you were filling sandbags as fast as you could , I bet if someone gave you food, you'd wolf it down too, to get back to fighting the flood waters as quick as possible.
he is protecting his turf. That's all he is doing. Noises might work, might not. Strong odors might work, might not. Dogs are not generic, you have to find what he responds to. And until you show him otherwise, HE is the alpha, not you.
Why would they bother to do any research when they can sell millions of dollars worth of useless plastic crap without even trying? The public will buy anything.
Don't over-anthropomorphise the dog. The dog is not reasoning out strategies. He isn't wolfing down the food to get back to barking, he wolfs down the food because he feels the need to bark and the food deters it. If flood waters were rising around your home and you were filling sandbags as fast as you could , I bet if someone gave you food, you'd wolf it down too, to get back to fighting the flood waters as quick as possible.
he is protecting his turf. That's all he is doing. Noises might work, might not. Strong odors might work, might not. Dogs are not generic, you have to find what he responds to. And until you show him otherwise, HE is the alpha, not you.
A bit contradictory, but it shows you know what it's gonna take. I agree with Enzo, you have to find what he responds to. Terriers are generally pretty smart, but often just as stubborn. It's unfortunate the owners take take more responsibility. I hope you get it worked out.
What I meant was not made clear I guess. I wouldn't want to condition him beyond the understanding that my property line is not to be barked at. I am not to be barked at. Bark all you want at the neighbors or the pedestrians, but some form of punishment or deterrence is going to be associated with my property line and barking toward me when I'm in my yard. It's not contradictory.
It's been said, and is true enough, that recognizing a dog's intelligence and capacity for learning corrective behavior is not automatically to presume any anthropomorphism. My anger, on the other hand, is admittedly crossing that line a bit. But I am regularly angry at my computer and at my lost car keys without being the least irrational about their devious plans to thwart me. It's just human nature.
I'll try the ammonia thing. I did rather like the 3yr old egg/yeast/chicken parts thing because of its elegance. The dog rather liked it and after all I have to admire his passion for his job. But the owners HAD to be put off since 'eddie' spends most of his time indoors.
Another tactic I was tempted by was some very mild aggression. Our houses are situated less than 75ft apart and the nearest next neighbor is 200yds away. Perfect. I've got a low grade boombox in the garage close to their house and when Eddie starts into the hard core barking I'd simply put an old Death Metal CD in and "repeat" until they came out and got their dog. That's training the neighbors rather than the dog. They are insensitive jerks most of the time, but no physical threat whatsoever so it would never come to any violence. But Death Metal at 10 volume. Doesn't just reading that sentence make your head hurt and your teeth clench?
And about that defending property bit. Anyone else ever noticed how fickle an animal, hard-wired to #1 eat, #2 have sex, #3 roll in dead fish and, #4 exist for all else to the service of his owner? An uncle came by one afternoon with his beloved Scottie (no, the other uncle is gay. the straight one, inexplicably, lives alone with his Scottie). He and his Scottie best pals for almost a decade. We had dinner while the dog sat quietly near the kitchen sink. Somehow he'd gotten his paws on a meaty soup bone and was intent on it to the exclusion of the entire universe around him.
When time came for Uncle to leave he donned his coat and reached down to put the dish away in the sink, good guest that he was. His beloved snarled like a feral hyena almost trembling with threat and baring teeth; that every muscle tensed pose, eyes fixed on the bone in case that ugly hand come near it again. Pretty frightening. And really sad for the uncle. Scottie's not there for you bud, no matter how much frisbee time or how many adoring women you introduce him to, or how willingly he follows your command. It's all about the food.... stupid. He was a house dog who'd never gotten anything but cans and dry bags of dog meal. Now who does he love?
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Plugging into hard wiring of the dog speeds training. Up until the last 110 years, men were great fans of the horse. Ammonia smells like the wrong end of a horse. And the wrong end of a horse comes equipped with flying hooves which are shod with steel. Took about three tries at 2 AM with the dog next door, to prove to him that I was someone he wanted to hide from. This was spraying over a board fence, mind, I couldn't even see the little *******.
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