Tell me about gainclones

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Good question? I have een asking myself the same................:scratch2:

Maybe we should ask Harry Potter. ;)
 

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Heard my first Gainclone last night

This amp used the LM3886. It was as good as I had expected it could be. Compared to a Pass Labs amp (don't know the model - Aleph something) it seemed to have crisper highs. But it suffered in the headroom department. I guess this is the typical GainClone's main performance constraint. They make excellent medium-power amps.

Regards
 
Solid Snake:
Why are they so popular compared to other chip amps or discrete component designs.
Because:
1. They are cheap. In fact a lot of guys get free samples from NS.
2. Some opportunist from 47 Laboratory shoved one in a sexy mini amp-case with tiny caps and gave it the catchy name "Gaincard". Then slapped on a telephone-number price. Now lazy audio diy'ers all over the world can build their own $2000 amp for "free".
3. They are a simple project for begginners. No PCB required. Just plug and play. Sound clean. This is the only "application" I personally think holds water, aside from surround-sound.
4. Other manufacturers have cottoned on to the profit potential. Linn and Jeff Rowland now use them. But I doubt purist amp builders will ever resort to such. But then, money talks...
Why would I want to build a gainclone more than any other design?
If none of the reasons above are relevant to your circumstances, then the answer is "You wouldn't..."

Disclaimer: These are my personal opinions and are shared by numerous others but certainly not all forum members, particularly Peter Daniels and other apparent afficionados of aesthetics over engineering.
 
Isn’t it a matter of what you really need. If all I need is 40W amp that sounds really good and if you subscribe to the view “Less is more” why would you go for something more complicated with a lot more components with specific requirements and ….. . What is wrong with using an IC that from a topology stand point is the same (in many cases much better) as some highly regarded DIY amps that claim that they sound good because of some specifics. Unless you wont to spend more time and money building the amp than listening to it. The feeling of accomplishment of getting something to work (and the more complicated it is the better you feel), that I understand. For some this amp is too simple to make them feel good.
Different story if you are talking about listening to music. It’s all relative. Some like it one way some like it the other. Some with more distortions (even order) some with less. Who is to say who is right and who is wrong. Obviously there are people that like the sound of that little amp. Otherwise I don’t think people (no matter how rich and stupid) would spend any money (heck I wouldn’t want it for free) if it didn’t sound to their liking. And I don’t own one (I’m building one though). And if you know what you are doing you can make it sound the way you want it too. But the concept (simplicity) makes so much sense. Build one properly, listen to it and then keep listening to it while you are building all your other ego-boosters-supper-amps.
Only MHO.
 
That's interesting. I do agree with your idea on building something complex, that seems to do it for me. I've never built a chip amp before, only discrete component. It seems to me that chips would take all the fun out of it. I could see why it would be cool to build though.
 
I like listening to music more than building the equipment.
Also after some playing around with my Yamaha amp, I discovered that it sounds 100 times better if I get rid of the preamp section.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=254246#post254246
I'm convinced for myself, the less components on the way of the signal, the better.
I'll repete myself: To ME (we are all different) the sound is more important than playing around with the guts of the equipment (that's what I do for a living).
 
Solid Snake said:
It seems to me that chips would take all the fun out of it. I could see why it would be cool to build though.

I'm not into circuit design myself and I prefer to implement other ppls circuits.

So the chip amp offers me much more fun than discreet amps. I don't have to worry about PCBs or wiring the circuit myself because everything is provided in a compact, 1 square inch package. All my efforts can be directed into building a better chassis and using much better auxilary parts, as the whole amp is much smaller and requires less of those parts, so I can actually use the best without worrying about my expenses. Playing with small parts is fun too, as it's easier, simpler and possibilities are practically unlimited. I can also check different chassis styles, as it's very easy and quick to built one.

I have components for at least 10 class A amps, but I really doubt if I ever go this way again. First of all, it takes much more time to put this kind of amp together. It may be fun in the beginning, but later it makes you tired and you can't wait to see the finished amp, but there is so much to do before it's finished. I actually know one forum member who was working on his Aleph 2 for more than a year before the amp was done. Me, OTOH, can built pretty well implemented chip amp in 2 or 3 days. Isn't it fun?;)

I would rather prefer to built 3 chip amps per channel to drive ea. driver separately, than a single, big amp to drive all of them together. The price and time spend to built 3 chip amps would be less than to built one regular amp.

I also compared my Zen, Alephs, Aleph X and few other amps, and honestly I can't say that those amps are better than a chip amp. So, if it's cheap, it's simple and possibly may sound very good, what more reasons do you need to build one?;)

Discussing virtues of chip amps could be compared to talking about advantages of non-oversampling in DACs. Some people have preconceived views and will never accept the idea that non-oversampling can sound good and may possibly be better than oversampling. Well, I tried both, and currently use the simpler solution, while my oversampling DAC is put on sale.

Disclaimer: Not all chip amps are equal. If you want to built a really good one, you have to go beyond just the fun phase.
 
Tell me more

47 Labs 4706 Gaincard is listed in the latest Stereophile recommended components among such amps as Blue Circle, Bryston, Conrad Jonson, McCormack, Theta and VTL (class B, average list price $2,500). Here what's writtten about the chip amp:

...the sound was clean, dynamic, and wideranging...
...with the Gaincard fully broken-in, there was a crystalline clarity that seemed to extend from the lowest bass to highest treble. The resolution of fine detail was quite extraordinary... The sound had a directness, a feeling that music was being reproduced with minimum of artifacts getting in the way. Given a sufficiently long break-in period and associated equipment that matches the Gaincard's pristine clarity without being too bright, the results can be outstanding
 
Peter, more often than not every positive review of any amplifier is countered by a luke-warm or negative one in some other magazine. This is pure subjectivity on whatever listener's part, distilled into adjectives of his/her choosing and designed to influence our thinking.

And whereas my own view on these chips is a matter of record, I concede the undeniable cost / reasonable result / easy-to-build aspects inherent in "plug-and-play" solutions, audio or otherwise. I also think that your amp cases are superbly built. Every one I've seen here is a gem of meticulous casework of which you can rightly be proud.

But... I think you will concede that no Gainclone / Gaincard is a masterpiece of audio engineering in terms of design. Excepting of course contributions by the NS EE's to the chip innards. And yes, I know it's supposed to be all about the music but realistically it isn't. Not for most forum members in my view at least. It's about accomplishment first and music second. Otherwise we'd all be content with mp3 music and any old "ordinary" bits and pieces sound systems.

Personally, if I spent $2500 on a Gaincard on the say-so of some reviewer and found a $1 chip at the heart of matters, I would feel pretty stupid, no matter what it sounded like. Same goes for an expensive Linn or Jeff Rowland amp containing $1 chips. It kind of insults the buyer and also the truly innovative, dedicated amp designers out there whose products are placed in this company. But that's just me...
 
DrG,
From your previous postings in this thread and others, we know that (to broadly paraphrase) you don't consider the chip amp to be a legitimate source of high quality sound. That's fine, we all come with our pre exisiting biases. There are many in audio such as:
All mosfets are bad
All horns are bad
Only horns are good
Only tubes are good
Only triodes are good
Only DHT's, SET's, non parallel SET's are good
Simple amps are better
No feedback amps are better
High feedback amps with low distortion are better
Class A is better
Balanced is better

You get the idea, I could go on.

At the end of the day, the result is what counts. If it sounds good by the criteria of those listening then (to them at least) it's a good amp.

As far as your comment:
Personally, if I spent $2500 on a Gaincard on the say-so of some reviewer and found a $1 chip at the heart of matters, I would feel pretty stupid, no matter what it sounded like. Same goes for an expensive Linn or Jeff Rowland amp containing $1 chips. It kind of insults the buyer and also the truly innovative, dedicated amp designers out there whose products are placed in this company. But that's just me...

I would say the following:

An amp that retails for 2500 usually breaks down the following way:

Of the 2500, at least 40% is usually dealer markup so let's call it 1500. Another 10-20% is usually taxes etc so let's call it an even 1000.

Take off some cost for distributors and shipping and that leaves 800.

With 800 dollars you are now expected to pay your business overheads, pay your staff, package the item and buy all your parts plus recover any costs incurred in R&D. No-one is suggesting that a gainclone sounds exactly the same as a thrown together amp that follows the app notes so this R&D work has obviously taken place.

Certainly for a large volume manufacturer parts ordering is almost insignificant but I know for me, if I have to track down suppliers, print and send orders, head across town to get transformers and so forth to build an amp I'm down a good 10 hours or so before i break out the soldering iron and wait however many weeks for the bits to arrive.

With a good quality chassis machined up and anodised and nice knobs, sockets, pots, caps, resistors etc installed how much of that 800 dollars is left? You do the math.

I stick by my original statement. If at the 2500 pricepoint it's a world class amp, then (as far as the listeners are concerned) it's worth it.

Before you slag off all amps built around 1$ chips (they cost me 15$ in labour to source) look at the parts involved, the time used and the other associated costs.

When you're being paid for your time, what's your hourly rate?

Drew
 
Konnichiwa,

DrewP said:

That's fine, we all come with our pre exisiting biases. There are many in audio such as:
All mosfets are bad
All horns are bad
Only triodes are good
Only DHT's, SET's, non parallel SET's are good
High feedback amps with low distortion are better
Class A is better
Balanced is better

Right.

DrewP said:

Only horns are good
Only tubes are good
Simple amps are better
No feedback amps are better

These are not biases, these are simple facts.... :D

Sayonara
 
Konnichiwa,

DrG said:
Peter, more often than not every positive review of any amplifier is countered by a luke-warm or negative one in some other magazine.

This is true, though the GC did get practically ONLY rave reviews....

DrG said:
And whereas my own view on these chips is a matter of record, I concede the undeniable cost / reasonable result / easy-to-build aspects inherent in "plug-and-play" solutions, audio or otherwise.

WHich is exactly what I recommend these Chip Amp's for. They are a simple and affordable way to get into DIY and sound good enough, combined with minimal chances to screw things up....

DrG said:
But... I think you will concede that no Gainclone / Gaincard is a masterpiece of audio engineering in terms of design. Excepting of course contributions by the NS EE's to the chip innards.

Yet it is exactly that. Of course only if you include the work of the guys'n'gals at NS. But do you make your own transistors, valves, resistors etc?

DrG said:
Personally, if I spent $2500 on a Gaincard on the say-so of some reviewer and found a $1 chip at the heart of matters, I would feel pretty stupid, no matter what it sounded like.

Then no doubt it make you feel a lot less stupid to know that general retail in small numbers is around $ 7, plus taxes....

DrG said:
Same goes for an expensive Linn or Jeff Rowland amp containing $1 chips.

Which they don't.

DrG said:
It kind of insults the buyer and also the truly innovative, dedicated amp designers out there whose products are placed in this company. But that's just me...

I'd argue that getting good sound from generic, affordable Amplifier chips is truely innovative, while building the n'th copy of RCA Databook circuits (but changed to mosfets or inverted [npn for pnp] or with a few resistor values changed) is far from it....

Sayonara
 
Drg: Same goes for an expensive Linn or Jeff Rowland amp containing $1 chips.
Kuei Yang Wang: Which they don't.
Sorry to burst your bubble Kuei, but some do... go do your homework.
Kuei Yang Wang: WHich is exactly what I recommend these Chip Amp's for. They are a simple and affordable way to get into DIY and sound good enough, combined with minimal chances to screw things up....
Exactly what I said. Check if you like...
But do you make your own transistors, valves, resistors etc?
How is this relevant? I can buy any variety of all of the above and connect them an infinite number of ways to produce innumerable permutations of power, distortion, slew rate etc which could sound crap or fantastic. Why should the gainclone corollary be diy part-manufacture instead of discrete design? You can take the chip and connect it one of two basic ways. Full stop. It will work every time, much as the time before and be reliable and fairly trouble-proof with reasonable sound. It will also lack creativity, tweakability at circuit level and in my personal opinion also credibility.
I'd argue that getting good sound from generic, affordable Amplifier chips is truely innovative, while building the n'th copy of RCA Databook circuits (but changed to mosfets or inverted [npn for pnp] or with a few resistor values changed) is far from it....
Chips have been around a long time. Well before the "Gainclone" phenomenon. No true innovation there anymore... And I agree with your point on re-hashed RCA or other circuits. But that doesn't detract from the truly innovative analogue designs out there, only possible in the discrete realm, I'm afraid.
 
Konnichiwa,

DrG said:


Sorry to burst your bubble Kuei, but some do... go do your homework.

Actually, I have. Non of those you find in Rowland or Linns Amplifiers for amplification come in at $ 1 (US) budgetary pricing in 1,000's.

DrG said:

How is this relevant?

Because one chooses one kind of transistors or another, something which makes a drastic impact on the sound.

DrG said:

I can buy any variety of all of the above and connect them an infinite number of ways to produce innumerable permutations of power, distortion, slew rate etc which could sound crap or fantastic.


And few which are materially better (objective & subjective) than the Gainclone/card.

DrG said:

Chips have been around a long time. Well before the "Gainclone" phenomenon.

I know. I build active speakers using the eastern european copies of the TDA2030/2040/2050 in the mid 80's and inverted them too...

Sayonara
 
DrG said:

It will also lack creativity, tweakability at circuit level and in my personal opinion also credibility.


Good you added "at circuit level". I tweaked my GC more than any other SS amp. Why? because the gains were worth it. And why would you like to tweak something at circuit level, when it's tweaked already? Just for the fun? I'd rather waste my time somwhere else.
 
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