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Old 1st February 2012, 09:00 AM   #21
stratus46 is offline stratus46  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenStanleyBayes View Post
Note: The two common collectors at each output would not introduce the typical nonlinearity because of the general feedback which will make the operational amplifier "switch" the transistors (go through zero) without a problem because the feedback is after the transistors and wil make the amplifier follow the shape of the voltage.
Build it and see (hear). You're wrong about the crossover distortion.

G
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Old 1st February 2012, 09:18 AM   #22
StevenStanleyBayes is offline StevenStanleyBayes  Canada
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The front will not oscilate, although I haven't done phase analysis.

Crossover between the channels is not supposed to happen.

The class is AB in stupid terminology. Standard push pull in also stupid terminology. Standard common collectors in normal terminology.

The problem with push pull is nonlinearity when crossing the 0 as far as I can see. Not possible in operational amplifier controlled and feedbacked common collectors and operational amplifier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stratus46 View Post
At first glance "no class" but for the 'nit picky' that amp is technically class C in that the devices conduct less than 180 degrees. Can you say cross-over distortion - and lots OF it? He'd be much better off with a chip-amp. That front end is a mess and will likely oscillate like mad. I take it this is not Steven's day job.
G
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Old 1st February 2012, 09:24 AM   #23
Enzo is offline Enzo  United States
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Steven, some of your ideas may be interesting, but is it just possible you could deliver them without all the pontificating?

If you wish to use alternative terms, fine, but really, to go on and on about how all these industry standard terms are "stupid" and other abolutes of judgement gets rather tiring and offputting.
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Old 1st February 2012, 09:30 AM   #24
StevenStanleyBayes is offline StevenStanleyBayes  Canada
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Tere is plenty of phase margin in unity gain in TL084. The capacitive loads are not so high.

As I have mentined: Phase analysis must be done BUT for completion of design purposes. Just because they must ALWAYS be done. In this case, problem with oscillation due to high inductive loads is not suspected but must be checked as they must always be checked.

In the worst case: get rid of some of the filters.

Lowering the capcitors will not help because the cut off frequency (the RC product) is the same.

Again, the only way to find out is to calculate the phese shift and look in the spec of TL084 and see whether the natural phase shift of TL084 due to output resistance and output capacitance and the phase shifts introduced by all inductive loads throughout the circuit would not be more than 180 degrees.

Will do but not now. Not so important. Not so interesting. Just a must from a theoretic point of view.

Anyways, the phases are 1/(tan -f/20) and 1/(tan -f/25000). Calculate and look up in case you want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenStanleyBayes View Post
The front will not oscilate, although I haven't done phase analysis.

Crossover between the channels is not supposed to happen.

The class is AB in stupid terminology. Standard push pull in also stupid terminology. Standard common collectors in normal terminology.

The problem with push pull is nonlinearity when crossing the 0 as far as I can see. Not possible in operational amplifier controlled and feedbacked common collectors and operational amplifier.
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Old 1st February 2012, 11:39 AM   #25
StevenStanleyBayes is offline StevenStanleyBayes  Canada
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I don't use alternative terms but, rather, basic terms.

I know these are industry standard terms but I don't like them.

I will try to take your advice seriously and not to pontificate against but I believe the people who invented them pontificated and dictated them.

I just wanted to find more people to rebel. In sound, things are not so bad. In other fields of expertise, things are out of hand.

To be honest, I even think people have died because of terms with which military is full.

I do not want to be pathetic and I do not want to ridicule you, please do not take this post wrogly. I just want to say what I have heard: I have heard someone to use the term "Biological Unit Worker" for a cow milker. This is funny but there are other things which create so many problems and misunderstanding. Again, in electronics and sound, things are not so bad.

I promise to try the best I can to resist talking against and stop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
Steven, some of your ideas may be interesting, but is it just possible you could deliver them without all the pontificating?

If you wish to use alternative terms, fine, but really, to go on and on about how all these industry standard terms are "stupid" and other abolutes of judgement gets rather tiring and offputting.
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Old 1st February 2012, 11:43 AM   #26
StevenStanleyBayes is offline StevenStanleyBayes  Canada
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Also, thank you for the good words but I have not expressed any original idea. This is not the reason for the previous talk against terms. The reason was experience with other works.

I appologise to have offended you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenStanleyBayes View Post
I don't use alternative terms but, rather, basic terms.

I know these are industry standard terms but I don't like them.

I will try to take your advice seriously and not to pontificate against but I believe the people who invented them pontificated and dictated them.

I just wanted to find more people to rebel. In sound, things are not so bad. In other fields of expertise, things are out of hand.

To be honest, I even think people have died because of terms with which military is full.

I do not want to be pathetic and I do not want to ridicule you, please do not take this post wrogly. I just want to say what I have heard: I have heard someone to use the term "Biological Unit Worker" for a cow milker. This is funny but there are other things which create so many problems and misunderstanding. Again, in electronics and sound, things are not so bad.

I promise to try the best I can to resist talking against and stop.
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Old 1st February 2012, 12:04 PM   #27
qusp is offline qusp  Australia
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you know, your talk is so tiring and unending that i think it would take someone who really liked you to read all you have written. the problem is, you seem to take pleasure in being somewhat of a rebel and putting people offside, while trying very hard to appear reasonable
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Old 1st February 2012, 12:28 PM   #28
StevenStanleyBayes is offline StevenStanleyBayes  Canada
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I have appologised and will try not to.

I am not liked by anyone usually so you will not eable to read the posts. You will not miss anything, though. There is nothing new I have said. I have not invented anything.

You are right, I have taken some pleasure in talking some things BUT I have definitely NOT meant to put people offside.

Quote:
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you know, your talk is so tiring and unending that i think it would take someone who really liked you to read all you have written. the problem is, you seem to take pleasure in being somewhat of a rebel and putting people offside, while trying very hard to appear reasonable

Last edited by StevenStanleyBayes; 1st February 2012 at 12:31 PM.
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Old 1st February 2012, 01:00 PM   #29
madtecchy is offline madtecchy  England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qusp View Post
you know, your talk is so tiring and unending that i think it would take someone who really liked you to read all you have written. the problem is, you seem to take pleasure in being somewhat of a rebel and putting people offside, while trying very hard to appear reasonable
If you dont like it dont read it . Very simple really
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Old 2nd February 2012, 06:24 AM   #30
stratus46 is offline stratus46  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenStanleyBayes View Post
The front will not oscilate, although I haven't done phase analysis.

Crossover between the channels is not supposed to happen.

The class is AB in stupid terminology. Standard push pull in also stupid terminology. Standard common collectors in normal terminology.

The problem with push pull is nonlinearity when crossing the 0 as far as I can see. Not possible in operational amplifier controlled and feedbacked common collectors and operational amplifier.
Care to make a small wager on that oscillation? You clearly don't know what you're talking about. Your 'non biased' "operational amplifier controlled and feedbacked common collectors and operational amplifier" will most certainly exhibit crossover quirks and will be more audible at low levels.

Time to exit this nonsense. Bye.

G
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