Hi Barry,
I didn't show up "to have another go at you".
I haven't been that well medically, and this is a chance to go through replies and clean up loose ends. Since these threads to show up in search engines, I care that the record be set straight. I felt that some of your comments do not reflect the truth with regard to the quality of both the design and manufacture of this brand.
What amazes me Barry, is that the Cyrus brand equipment one of the most technologically advanced and reliable of British built products. You really ought to have been impressed with both the design (but I haven't checked to see if the supplied schematics are correct or not) and build quality. Cyrus is in fact one of the most reliable products I have seen, certainly in the top number in that class. That and it is entirely a British design and build, instead of a bought design from an Asian design house. That is the truth behind many British brand names in this day.
I have done work on other brands, some you mentioned by name. I can say as fact that Cyrus is a better design than, say Naim. That is a design that I'm not impressed with at all, many short comings there.
What I saw in your posts was an upset, disgruntled person, lashing out because he couldn't get what he wanted. That is not the position that will provide an unbiased opinion, and it is clearly not fair to make comments that damage the reputation of a brand, on an older, discontinued product that you may not have properly repaired and set up.
BTW, those insulators for the output transistors are special gap-gilling types (take note tiefbassuebertr) that are available to the general public. They just cost more. I will say that I'm not happy with the rough finish either, and I do resurface some. The answer to that is the surface, using the gap filling insulators, has a normal thermal resistance. Surfacing those areas would increase the end cost to the consumer for no benefit that I can see. If a technician does work on these, and does not use the proper insulator, or resurface the mounting areas, it is the fault of the technician alone.
Now Barry, this final comment you made earlier is completely unfair ...
My guess is that you are use to the average piece of equipment, and this design is beyond your experience. No shame in that. But you failed to acknowledge that many more brand name equipment refuse to release any information, and that many of these are poorly designed, and / or constructed. I know, because I've signed many NDA's over the years. So the fact that service information is not released is not abnormal, but in this case they have good reasons to have this policy. This decision was pretty much forced on them through the actions of many poor service people over the years. It intent is to protect consumers from having their equipment destroyed.
Keep in mind too, Cyrus can and will service most of their old products except for some extremely old ones (for lack of parts). Some of these are over 20 years old now. How many manufacturers or distributors can say that? I'll break the suspense - not very many.
Finally, I am not attacking you. I am setting the record straight to agree with the facts. In fact, if you go back through my various posts over the years, you will see I help where I can, within the guidelines I am bound to keep. Where I decline assistance, it is because the person is asking for things I can not provide, or I'm convinced they do not possess the skills, knowledge or equipment needed to reasonable complete the task they set out to accomplish.
Now Barry, I don't think you even asked for help here. You simply barged in with complaints and a bad attitude. You didn't give anyone the opportunity to assist you really. Do you find that you don't get much help with problems in life? This could be one reason why.
-Chris
I didn't show up "to have another go at you".
I haven't been that well medically, and this is a chance to go through replies and clean up loose ends. Since these threads to show up in search engines, I care that the record be set straight. I felt that some of your comments do not reflect the truth with regard to the quality of both the design and manufacture of this brand.
What amazes me Barry, is that the Cyrus brand equipment one of the most technologically advanced and reliable of British built products. You really ought to have been impressed with both the design (but I haven't checked to see if the supplied schematics are correct or not) and build quality. Cyrus is in fact one of the most reliable products I have seen, certainly in the top number in that class. That and it is entirely a British design and build, instead of a bought design from an Asian design house. That is the truth behind many British brand names in this day.
I have done work on other brands, some you mentioned by name. I can say as fact that Cyrus is a better design than, say Naim. That is a design that I'm not impressed with at all, many short comings there.
What I saw in your posts was an upset, disgruntled person, lashing out because he couldn't get what he wanted. That is not the position that will provide an unbiased opinion, and it is clearly not fair to make comments that damage the reputation of a brand, on an older, discontinued product that you may not have properly repaired and set up.
BTW, those insulators for the output transistors are special gap-gilling types (take note tiefbassuebertr) that are available to the general public. They just cost more. I will say that I'm not happy with the rough finish either, and I do resurface some. The answer to that is the surface, using the gap filling insulators, has a normal thermal resistance. Surfacing those areas would increase the end cost to the consumer for no benefit that I can see. If a technician does work on these, and does not use the proper insulator, or resurface the mounting areas, it is the fault of the technician alone.
Now Barry, this final comment you made earlier is completely unfair ...
You did not purchase any of these new, or warranty would have covered them. So your comment is a complete distortion of what a potential buyer might experience. Truth be told, the failure rate is extremely low, lower than most brands. On top of that, service rates are in the normal range for consumer products, and the final testing each repair gets is at the level that it had to pass when brand new. That is well above the normal standards (in practice) that all but a few brands enforce.
My guess is that you are use to the average piece of equipment, and this design is beyond your experience. No shame in that. But you failed to acknowledge that many more brand name equipment refuse to release any information, and that many of these are poorly designed, and / or constructed. I know, because I've signed many NDA's over the years. So the fact that service information is not released is not abnormal, but in this case they have good reasons to have this policy. This decision was pretty much forced on them through the actions of many poor service people over the years. It intent is to protect consumers from having their equipment destroyed.
Keep in mind too, Cyrus can and will service most of their old products except for some extremely old ones (for lack of parts). Some of these are over 20 years old now. How many manufacturers or distributors can say that? I'll break the suspense - not very many.
Finally, I am not attacking you. I am setting the record straight to agree with the facts. In fact, if you go back through my various posts over the years, you will see I help where I can, within the guidelines I am bound to keep. Where I decline assistance, it is because the person is asking for things I can not provide, or I'm convinced they do not possess the skills, knowledge or equipment needed to reasonable complete the task they set out to accomplish.
Now Barry, I don't think you even asked for help here. You simply barged in with complaints and a bad attitude. You didn't give anyone the opportunity to assist you really. Do you find that you don't get much help with problems in life? This could be one reason why.
-Chris
Hi Andrew,
Hi tiefbassuebertr,
I know you have an insatiable appetite for circuit diagrams, and really rail against any obstacles to that quest. But, what you are asking for here ...
You are well aware that the manufacturer does not release this information. I've told you that more than once. So, although the designs are advanced and interesting (they are cool!), you will have to wait until they come out in the fullness of time. Pressuring someone to break the internal company policy is not an admirable trait.
I will add that you need more than the preamp section of the IIIi. The amp section is a total redesign I think. I should check that instead of going off memory, but I do know that circuit changes are made during the model production runs, and they are signified with a different rev number on the various PCBs. It's not just a software change. Could be layout or circuit and layout. Both the III and IIIi have more than one version, but they are close enough to retain the same model number. Typically, a new model number signifies many basic changes.
I think you'd be really interested in the Pre X and later preamp information. Much more advanced beyond what you are considering now. Then you also have the pick of some excellent designs that have been posted here too.
-Chris
I'm sorry, which remarks are you referring to? If one is ...
That was a comment made in a general sense to describe the less capable "technicians" we all have to clean up after. It was not directed at Barry since I do not know what his skill level actually is. Believe me when I say that I had stronger words in mind as I thought back over some of the destroyed equipment I have seen.
Hi tiefbassuebertr,
I know you have an insatiable appetite for circuit diagrams, and really rail against any obstacles to that quest. But, what you are asking for here ...
The firmware you are asking for is theft, very clearly laid out in the law. Study other examples for the processor you are interested in (the manufacturer of the micro controller supplies them for free download) and go from there. There are only so many ways to make it do what you want, and one of them will be a close match. Provide for the IR signals, and the MC buss as well.
You are well aware that the manufacturer does not release this information. I've told you that more than once. So, although the designs are advanced and interesting (they are cool!), you will have to wait until they come out in the fullness of time. Pressuring someone to break the internal company policy is not an admirable trait.
I will add that you need more than the preamp section of the IIIi. The amp section is a total redesign I think. I should check that instead of going off memory, but I do know that circuit changes are made during the model production runs, and they are signified with a different rev number on the various PCBs. It's not just a software change. Could be layout or circuit and layout. Both the III and IIIi have more than one version, but they are close enough to retain the same model number. Typically, a new model number signifies many basic changes.
I think you'd be really interested in the Pre X and later preamp information. Much more advanced beyond what you are considering now. Then you also have the pick of some excellent designs that have been posted here too.
-Chris
Hi Barry,
Hey, no problem. From the type of work you do, I understand where you're coming from.
I see that you offer new products and modifications as well. Therefore you do have a good idea how the basic amp should work. This Power model amplifier, if you ever are interested to examine it, is fundamentally different in design from what you would normally see. It borrows some general design elements from the Nakamichi 620 and Marantz 170DC / 300DC. Similar, but not nearly close enough to call a copy. Look at the current amplifier section and take another look at the Power PCB. I think they are using smt dual transistors in there. Complimentary -HINT!-
Best, Chris
Hey, no problem. From the type of work you do, I understand where you're coming from.
I see that you offer new products and modifications as well. Therefore you do have a good idea how the basic amp should work. This Power model amplifier, if you ever are interested to examine it, is fundamentally different in design from what you would normally see. It borrows some general design elements from the Nakamichi 620 and Marantz 170DC / 300DC. Similar, but not nearly close enough to call a copy. Look at the current amplifier section and take another look at the Power PCB. I think they are using smt dual transistors in there. Complimentary -HINT!-
Best, Chris
Cyrus 3
Hi, all!
I am new here so maybe not even in right section but I need some help here.
I recently bought old Cyrus 3 integrated amp and Cyrus Power. I would like to connect them in a Bi-amp setup but I am not sure how to do it and don't want to make a fatal misteku. So would please you if you can help me with it.
If you have any scheme even better.
Thanks!
Andrej
Hi, all!
I am new here so maybe not even in right section but I need some help here.
I recently bought old Cyrus 3 integrated amp and Cyrus Power. I would like to connect them in a Bi-amp setup but I am not sure how to do it and don't want to make a fatal misteku. So would please you if you can help me with it.
If you have any scheme even better.
Thanks!
Andrej
about
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/207809-need-help-mission-cyrus-iii.html
you will find various PCB images in high resolution
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/207809-need-help-mission-cyrus-iii.html
you will find various PCB images in high resolution
Hi tiefbassuebertr,
He was asking for an external view of how to hook up a biamp system. THose images you linked to don't seem to exist or at least are not showing in the thread.
Hi anhton82,
I was authorized warranty for that brand, but I cannot release anything. Are you aware that it is surface mount for one? At some point Cyrus received a defective lot of transistors. They didn't break down right away, so there is a range of serial numbers that was affected. I highly recommend you take your unit to an authorized Cyrus service shop. There are a lot of surface mount transistors to be replaced.
Check some of the SMT transistors with a hot soldering iron and tell me if they melt.
Also, the heat sink surfaces are very rough. I always carefully file them to be flat and shiny (last step is with 600 grit wet/dry sandpaper). They use special insulators that cannot be reused, and you certainly cannot use mica and grease without filing the surfaces perfectly flat, smooth and shiny. I often use the back side of the 600 grit sandpaper to do a final polish. That step is very important. So, if you remove the transistors from the surface of the heat sink, you absolutely must use new insulators and refinish the mounting surface. I do not recommend that you do your own service on this unit. Once done, they are really nice amplifiers.
-Chris
He was asking for an external view of how to hook up a biamp system. THose images you linked to don't seem to exist or at least are not showing in the thread.
Hi anhton82,
I was authorized warranty for that brand, but I cannot release anything. Are you aware that it is surface mount for one? At some point Cyrus received a defective lot of transistors. They didn't break down right away, so there is a range of serial numbers that was affected. I highly recommend you take your unit to an authorized Cyrus service shop. There are a lot of surface mount transistors to be replaced.
Check some of the SMT transistors with a hot soldering iron and tell me if they melt.
Also, the heat sink surfaces are very rough. I always carefully file them to be flat and shiny (last step is with 600 grit wet/dry sandpaper). They use special insulators that cannot be reused, and you certainly cannot use mica and grease without filing the surfaces perfectly flat, smooth and shiny. I often use the back side of the 600 grit sandpaper to do a final polish. That step is very important. So, if you remove the transistors from the surface of the heat sink, you absolutely must use new insulators and refinish the mounting surface. I do not recommend that you do your own service on this unit. Once done, they are really nice amplifiers.
-Chris
Service Manual include schematic is here:
Cyrus 3 - Manual - Stereo Integrated Amplifier - HiFi Engine
I don't like to give exact explanations for beginners for realizing a Bi-amping system particularly in cases, if different power amp stages with different gain factors are in use.
here fundamentals about it in English and German
Bi-Wiring and Bi-Amping Explained | Audio Advice
Bi-Amping - Was Sie wissen sollten - connect
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Hi tiefbassuebertr,
Thanks for the links, but I already understand how this stuff really works. These may have helped antonof, certainly not me.
I was the service manager for Cyrus in Canada and own several of their products, including the Mono X amplifiers. I also understand exactly how these circuits work. This is a very high end product using advanced circuit techniques. In addition, they are all surface mount except for the power devices. I am unfortunately familiar with how much destruction is caused when other service techs, and owners decide they can work on them. A few might be, but the vast majority mayas well pour gas on them, light it and walk away. The end result will be the same. Sorry about my attitude, but observing history forces me to come to this conclusion.
-Chris
Thanks for the links, but I already understand how this stuff really works. These may have helped antonof, certainly not me.
I was the service manager for Cyrus in Canada and own several of their products, including the Mono X amplifiers. I also understand exactly how these circuits work. This is a very high end product using advanced circuit techniques. In addition, they are all surface mount except for the power devices. I am unfortunately familiar with how much destruction is caused when other service techs, and owners decide they can work on them. A few might be, but the vast majority mayas well pour gas on them, light it and walk away. The end result will be the same. Sorry about my attitude, but observing history forces me to come to this conclusion.
-Chris
I don't think Tiefbassuebertrauer was initially replying to you, Chris. He was, I think, just making a reply to antonof (signature Andrej) whose post was in 2011. There's nearly 8 years between the posts and the current request by anhton82 is on a different subject.
Personally, I find that telling guys who are all fired up to tinker with a product in the way that someone at maybe another forum claimed to sound great and used lavish terms to describe the effect, is wasting your breath. When it comes to audio, DIYs like to try for more than the original designs offered and sometimes, you have to go along with the enthusiasm and assist within the bounds of sanity, at least.
However, a belief that you always improve sound quality just by changing a few capacitors types (in this case probably to lower quality as these are mostly SMDs) or you can even alter the amplifier's operating parameters at will and without consequence, may be naive but the occasional burnout and maybe a trashed PCB is usually a lesson that won't be forgotten
Personally, I find that telling guys who are all fired up to tinker with a product in the way that someone at maybe another forum claimed to sound great and used lavish terms to describe the effect, is wasting your breath. When it comes to audio, DIYs like to try for more than the original designs offered and sometimes, you have to go along with the enthusiasm and assist within the bounds of sanity, at least.
However, a belief that you always improve sound quality just by changing a few capacitors types (in this case probably to lower quality as these are mostly SMDs) or you can even alter the amplifier's operating parameters at will and without consequence, may be naive but the occasional burnout and maybe a trashed PCB is usually a lesson that won't be forgotten
I know everything and have already annoyed me, if previously amateur repair attempts were carried out.
Nevertheless, I expect to purchase an audio device on a detailed service manual including schematic diagram and circuit description.
Otherwise you have the risk to receive this in the repair case no longer, e. g., because the company no longer exists or - what already occurred - all old and unpublished documents were destroyed - in the hope that customers will buy more easy new equipment.
Best way it will be, at first ordering the service-manual and only then the associated audio device.
Incidentally, non-existent circuit diagrams do not prevent improper interventions by some self-made technicians.
Rather the opposite is the case, especially if detailed instructions regarding the procedure for repair so as for selection the parts are given (in this case it is much more unlikely to carry out repair attempts).
An example for a good maked service-manual is this for Yamaha's HCA-power amp MX-10000 - go to
YAMAHA MX 10000 Service Manual download, schematics, eeprom, repair info for electronics experts
Although I have the service manual of this model, I would leave such a repair to real Yamaha experts for this model.
In comparison, repairing a Cyrus III is an easy task (of course only if one have a good documentation at hand).
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Hi I know this is an old post but if anyone has the schematic for the 8Vs2... I understand about the official sercerts act you guys have to sign. Ive done the same with AER.. This would really help me in finding a value on the SMD resistor R302 which is blown. due to the FZT658 going short
many thanks
many thanks
Genuine Circuit Diagram for Cyrus III - now online
http://bilder.hifi-forum.de/max/860950/planauschnitt-links_787907.jpg
found by
Cyrus III - Defekter Ringkerntrafo - Help!, Hifi-Klassiker - HIFI-FORUM (Seite 3)
(Report of a repair procedure in German language)
http://bilder.hifi-forum.de/max/860950/planauschnitt-links_787907.jpg
found by
Cyrus III - Defekter Ringkerntrafo - Help!, Hifi-Klassiker - HIFI-FORUM (Seite 3)
(Report of a repair procedure in German language)
Attachments
What the heck has been done to that poor little amplifier?!! That is barbaric!
What are all the red circles about? I know some things that should be circled, and they ain't it. I'm sorry, but I am not allowed to share.
Even when the right information is obtained, you can't trust what people not in the know say on the internet! It the unit pictured showed up on my bench, those big parts would be replaced. If not I would refuse to work on it. Don't do silly stuff to your equipment folks. Cyrus designs are fairly advanced and not like the normal stuff you will run in to. Unless you truly understand the circuit, don't go around changing anything from the original design!
-Chris
What are all the red circles about? I know some things that should be circled, and they ain't it. I'm sorry, but I am not allowed to share.
Even when the right information is obtained, you can't trust what people not in the know say on the internet! It the unit pictured showed up on my bench, those big parts would be replaced. If not I would refuse to work on it. Don't do silly stuff to your equipment folks. Cyrus designs are fairly advanced and not like the normal stuff you will run in to. Unless you truly understand the circuit, don't go around changing anything from the original design!
-Chris
Hmm I have mixed feelings about this thread. For one reason or another I have a cyrus 8 and two cyrus 3s that are relegated to fairly basic usage of a non-critical audio nature. I like them because they are fully remote control, have plenty of power etc and are great to drop on the end of a streaming dac of some form.
One of my cyrus 3s is now dodgy on left channel after a mains power spike of some form. I don't need it for critical listening, I just need it back up and running. I can even replace it with a spare Av8/power (the non smart one) combo that i have lying around but is hugely overkill for its job which is very occasional music from terrible but discreet bose high up in the bedroom. So you get the idea, nobody is going to notice a mis-matched channel, the audio food chain is compromised starting from the shockingly bad bose anyway. Amp is dead atm and very old but its a wonderful bit of furniture, the design is timeless.
I was planning to use my electronics degree to get me through ... question what does a pro overhaul of one of these cost typically ?
Other option could be to sell for parts / someone else to repair and switch to a chinese pwm amp.
Oh and I love the mc-bus. You can drive it with an arduino for cross manufacturer integration purposes.
One of my cyrus 3s is now dodgy on left channel after a mains power spike of some form. I don't need it for critical listening, I just need it back up and running. I can even replace it with a spare Av8/power (the non smart one) combo that i have lying around but is hugely overkill for its job which is very occasional music from terrible but discreet bose high up in the bedroom. So you get the idea, nobody is going to notice a mis-matched channel, the audio food chain is compromised starting from the shockingly bad bose anyway. Amp is dead atm and very old but its a wonderful bit of furniture, the design is timeless.
I was planning to use my electronics degree to get me through ... question what does a pro overhaul of one of these cost typically ?
Other option could be to sell for parts / someone else to repair and switch to a chinese pwm amp.
Oh and I love the mc-bus. You can drive it with an arduino for cross manufacturer integration purposes.
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check out this thread:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/cyrus-iii-restoration-project.306782/
several interesting information
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/cyrus-iii-restoration-project.306782/
several interesting information
Well, Cyrus designs are inspired. The newer ones are along a different design direction, something I was also designing at the same time. However, we have seen repeatedly that care and attention to detail is required in the repair of these units. That is if you expect at least original performance. Reliability? That is actually the largest concern when these are worked on by someone not completely trained.
I'll be honest, work done by dealers, although "authorized" is pretty bad. That's compared to what a good tech who actually and really understands how the circuits really do operate. You need to be willing to match surface mount transistors (a real PITA) and pay attention to details. You also must be willing to order the correct arts and wait for them if you do not have them on hand. This is something I can tell you is not normal with even some "good" service shops.
With any well designed and executed equipment design, you will not get original performance (and certainly not better!) unless you exercise care and attention in servicing. The things you need to know are NOT in service manuals. Service manuals cover information specific to that item, they do not cover basic or advanced knowledge or circuit techniques. If you do not have all the test equipment of sufficient quality, you simply cannot do the job properly. I'll tell you, you absolutely cannot do the work and rely on your ear. If a tech ever tells you that, run! That person is an idiot. I say this with all seriousness and from experience.
I'll be honest, work done by dealers, although "authorized" is pretty bad. That's compared to what a good tech who actually and really understands how the circuits really do operate. You need to be willing to match surface mount transistors (a real PITA) and pay attention to details. You also must be willing to order the correct arts and wait for them if you do not have them on hand. This is something I can tell you is not normal with even some "good" service shops.
With any well designed and executed equipment design, you will not get original performance (and certainly not better!) unless you exercise care and attention in servicing. The things you need to know are NOT in service manuals. Service manuals cover information specific to that item, they do not cover basic or advanced knowledge or circuit techniques. If you do not have all the test equipment of sufficient quality, you simply cannot do the job properly. I'll tell you, you absolutely cannot do the work and rely on your ear. If a tech ever tells you that, run! That person is an idiot. I say this with all seriousness and from experience.