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Having built my first DIY amplifier I was so happy I started designing more complicated ones. The amplifier I build already sounds good enough, but it's so interesting that I feel compelled to go on with more esoteric ideas.
I have modeled this phenomena.
As amplifier complexity increases...
Time and effort increases
Sound quality increases with diminishing returns
bragging rights are highest at either very simple or very complex
And the total = satisfaction and shows two peaks. I think the first peak is the highest and represents the amplifiers DX, TGM, BTF, Frugal, Patchwork, Symasym....
Is it worth going beyond ?
I have modeled this phenomena.
As amplifier complexity increases...
Time and effort increases
Sound quality increases with diminishing returns
bragging rights are highest at either very simple or very complex
And the total = satisfaction and shows two peaks. I think the first peak is the highest and represents the amplifiers DX, TGM, BTF, Frugal, Patchwork, Symasym....
Is it worth going beyond ?
Attachments
You seem to understand the tradeoffs ,gareth. My supersym only sounds better than my bootstrap by a small degree. Any complexity (mostly size /quantity + softstart), is in the power supply. At low volumes they are nearly indistinguishable. The BTF would likely be identical.
One can regulate the voltage amp's PS (split supply) , and this would be a larger return (at the price of added complexity) Subtle changes in the LTP (CFP , standard , fet diff.) , have a VERY small sonic return besides better numbers.
Output stages are a different story .. Biasing , CFP vs EF/triple or mosfets .. sonic differences are noticable at higher levels. Done wrong , an other wise ample powered setup "runs out of steam" or has harsh sound. Oscillation , even at a barely measurable level, also has this effect .. VERY noticable.
OS
One can regulate the voltage amp's PS (split supply) , and this would be a larger return (at the price of added complexity) Subtle changes in the LTP (CFP , standard , fet diff.) , have a VERY small sonic return besides better numbers.
Output stages are a different story .. Biasing , CFP vs EF/triple or mosfets .. sonic differences are noticable at higher levels. Done wrong , an other wise ample powered setup "runs out of steam" or has harsh sound. Oscillation , even at a barely measurable level, also has this effect .. VERY noticable.
OS
Gareth,
I think you have it pretty well figured out..... I enjoyed the bit about bragging rights!
An interesting thing is that you could design an atom bomb, and people did, but they all came in for criticism. There are so many decisions to make in the design process that opportunity exists for your personal imprint. This inevitably draws comment, as others would choose another option. This is particularly true of front end and current source topologies.
I think increasing complexity is something we should vigorously fight. It threatens the species, like a V12 gasoline engine for a car. Simple can be good, but a great deal of time must be spent tweaking for best sound.
The last couple of years have brought us the TGM, the Abomination, the Supersym, the list of amps on this forum is amazing, most of them very, very good.
You have joined the ranks, congratulations!
Cheers,
Hugh
I think you have it pretty well figured out..... I enjoyed the bit about bragging rights!
An interesting thing is that you could design an atom bomb, and people did, but they all came in for criticism. There are so many decisions to make in the design process that opportunity exists for your personal imprint. This inevitably draws comment, as others would choose another option. This is particularly true of front end and current source topologies.
I think increasing complexity is something we should vigorously fight. It threatens the species, like a V12 gasoline engine for a car. Simple can be good, but a great deal of time must be spent tweaking for best sound.
The last couple of years have brought us the TGM, the Abomination, the Supersym, the list of amps on this forum is amazing, most of them very, very good.
You have joined the ranks, congratulations!
Cheers,
Hugh
Member
Joined 2009
Paid Member
AKSA said:
You have joined the ranks, congratulations!
Alumni:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
In case you're wondering, that's me in the middle...
Once again a thread has been derailed by a few select individuals. I have cleared out the offending posts and then some. Apologies to those whose valuable comments may have been swept out with the rest of the trash. Please feel free to repost.
Anymore mud slinging will result in bin time.
Fair warning.
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Joined 2009
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Member
Joined 2009
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Cal Weldon said:John, You're going to have to update your avatar photo. It's looking a little dated.
It's not dirty yet...
Bigun said:
I'm definitely the Pirate
Sweet!
With fingers in mouth say "I was born on a pirate ship"
That leaves OS as the suave Puerto Rican - you know he's getting some.
Bigun said:
On topic (
)Yes, I think it is worth going beyond. Some points:
I built the Abomination and it is the most well behaved and smoothest sounding amp I've done. It's fairly complex but this is justified in it's outstanding performance. This could not happen with fewer parts (I believe).
Also, the possibility of a eureka!Ok, the audio amp venue is as walked on as Stone Henge and as well explored but there is always the possibility of stumbling upon something, a different approach - one not envisioned by those who know better. That's my silly romantic view.
AND, it's a challenge these highly complex amps, like how many clowns can be squeezed into a VW bug. Glen K has be taking this route and he'll be a hard act to follow.
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Re: Re: How complex to make an amplifier ? (lighthearted)
I was thinking of waiting to see what Carlo's comes up with and then cloning it
The graph in post1 wasn't entirely tongue-in-cheek. I think there's a lot of interesting simple designs out there I haven't explored yet which I should look at before I get into that 'lifetime' project of a super-amp.
I feel an interest in looking at the system level. So far I have built a single driver speaker, and a simple(ish) amplifier. Even these need to be refined before I can say they are finished properly.
So my next foray may include a new speaker build (I like my Fostex drivers but they would benefit from being a 2-way with more bottom end), a look at alternative power supplies for the amplifier (e.g. SMPS off-the-shelf unit with DIY post-treatment), bi-amping (for the 2-way speaker) and low-freq. equalization (to extend the bottom end). And then there's vacuum tubes.
Oh boy
I was thinking of waiting to see what Carlo's comes up with and then cloning it
The graph in post1 wasn't entirely tongue-in-cheek. I think there's a lot of interesting simple designs out there I haven't explored yet which I should look at before I get into that 'lifetime' project of a super-amp.
I feel an interest in looking at the system level. So far I have built a single driver speaker, and a simple(ish) amplifier. Even these need to be refined before I can say they are finished properly.
So my next foray may include a new speaker build (I like my Fostex drivers but they would benefit from being a 2-way with more bottom end), a look at alternative power supplies for the amplifier (e.g. SMPS off-the-shelf unit with DIY post-treatment), bi-amping (for the 2-way speaker) and low-freq. equalization (to extend the bottom end). And then there's vacuum tubes.
Oh boy
Do not waste your time waiting new amplifiers
to clone Gareth..... you three convince me that is not a great idea to offer new ideas into the forum... as some folks does not respect.
You deserve the title, and some congratulation.... having only six monthes into our forum you behave disrespectfull with my years of dedication in this forum.... years of good work serving the forum and you go copying that way..almost the same stuff.
Be free to produce your clones, as you had the forum management support that allow you to do that....my amplifiers you will not clone, as i will not publish them anymore.
Not knowing them you will not be able to clone.
Behaving this way, you are kicking out someone that was very cooperative with the forum, and go kidding this cynical way confirming you are cloning things here.... i hope you work hard as i did, to substitute me with advantage to this forum.
I wish you good luck in this enterprise.
You three will be included into my ignore list..i think you are not nice enougth into your cynical behavior, end of our conversation.
I will be here, at solid state, i will not abandon my friends and readers, also the guys have built my amplifiers...not because of you and the other two guys addicted to cloning.
All friends, and forum members that need some help, just go to the threads i have opened about Dx amplifiers and i will be there to help you...also into my mail adress:
panzertoo@yahoo.com
Carlos
to clone Gareth..... you three convince me that is not a great idea to offer new ideas into the forum... as some folks does not respect.
You deserve the title, and some congratulation.... having only six monthes into our forum you behave disrespectfull with my years of dedication in this forum.... years of good work serving the forum and you go copying that way..almost the same stuff.
Be free to produce your clones, as you had the forum management support that allow you to do that....my amplifiers you will not clone, as i will not publish them anymore.
Not knowing them you will not be able to clone.
Behaving this way, you are kicking out someone that was very cooperative with the forum, and go kidding this cynical way confirming you are cloning things here.... i hope you work hard as i did, to substitute me with advantage to this forum.
I wish you good luck in this enterprise.
You three will be included into my ignore list..i think you are not nice enougth into your cynical behavior, end of our conversation.
I will be here, at solid state, i will not abandon my friends and readers, also the guys have built my amplifiers...not because of you and the other two guys addicted to cloning.
All friends, and forum members that need some help, just go to the threads i have opened about Dx amplifiers and i will be there to help you...also into my mail adress:
panzertoo@yahoo.com
Carlos
Member
Joined 2009
Paid Member
Carlos, I have been noticing of late that you are way too protective of your creations. And more so, English not being your first language, you seem to easily misunderstand what is said even in a lighter vein. I agree that you have a lot of technical expertise and diy experience, but your posts many times contain a lot of banter. Everyone has been tolerant.
Why don't you just ease up a bit and continue your good work. Getting up-tight does not help with creativity.
C'mon you are appreciated Carlos.
Why don't you just ease up a bit and continue your good work. Getting up-tight does not help with creativity.
C'mon you are appreciated Carlos.
Bigun said:
Not really
Whats the point
Though I think you made a very good conclusion, now removed
Besides, you should know better than making jokes about members not active in your thread, pretty stupid I would say
Many times problems seems unavoidable, but THAT one is easily avoided
They say our brain still functions like the neanderthals, its only the world that has changed
Those who survived wasnt the strongest, but the most intelligent, able to adapt the changes through 100.000years
We may degrade as human being, and intelligense may be the first
Seems the great thinkers have been here, and gone, and no more to come
Still not much on topic
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Joined 2009
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Re: Re: How complex to make an amplifier ? (lighthearted)
this seems to be the case.
In fact, I wonder if there isn't some level of 'tribal' behavior on the Forum at times. There seems to be some people that share threads, having a like mind. People from one group sometimes poke their head in on a thread of another tribe and this doesn't work as well.
New arrivals are watched and then sooner or later they fall into one of the tribes because of some common ways of thinking. The tribes have memories of past encounters.
It seems that only the wandering nomads that pop in from time to time can avoid falling into this problem. There are two kinds. One of them is the medicine man, the wise elder who is always welcome wherever they appear. They are careful what they say and so don't say very much. The other is the hermit, the one that doesn't say much but comes out from their cave once in awhile. They are not always up to date with things.
What shall I be ?
this seems to be the case.
In fact, I wonder if there isn't some level of 'tribal' behavior on the Forum at times. There seems to be some people that share threads, having a like mind. People from one group sometimes poke their head in on a thread of another tribe and this doesn't work as well.
New arrivals are watched and then sooner or later they fall into one of the tribes because of some common ways of thinking. The tribes have memories of past encounters.
It seems that only the wandering nomads that pop in from time to time can avoid falling into this problem. There are two kinds. One of them is the medicine man, the wise elder who is always welcome wherever they appear. They are careful what they say and so don't say very much. The other is the hermit, the one that doesn't say much but comes out from their cave once in awhile. They are not always up to date with things.
What shall I be ?
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