several aspects can be changed
NB
never seen the original PCB, IF IT EXISTS! !
Yes, it exists. I have it on good authority that Herve has been using pcbs and not a point-to-point construction
RedI personally am partial to red
I knew you were a Commie. Mine is plain green and looks somewhat different.
Attachments
Yes, it exists. I have it on good authority that Herve has been using pcbs and not a point-to-point construction
clone and true have PCBs that look the same.
We have redone them with a tour of different masses
Yes, it exists. I have it on good authority that Herve has been using pcbs and not a point-to-point construction
I struggle to believe it: the 2 PCBs, Chinese and - original - seem perfectly identical, for better or for worse,
Strange masses and non-separation are strange and elementary, mah
Thanks Danny,
I have two pairs of exactly the same configuration and another pair with a small additional capacitor between R9, R10, R13 and R14. This additional capacitor connects these resistors to the ground. I haven't noticed difference even though I have used different output devices, once MJL4281A/MJL4302A and MJL3281A/MJL1302A.
In new build I intend to use your previous suggestions to increase biass. I assume that Chinese have reduced biass to enable the use of smaller heat sinks and reduce overall costs. I have sinks large enough to attempt to achieve larger bias. At least I hope so.
Have a pleasant day!
But, no, don't worry.Am I the only one too cheap to buy ready made boards?
I'm even worse niggard
: I always buy spare ready made boards for the case that something goes wrong. 
I have three pairs of NHB-108 and another pair is dispatched from the Mainland China. 
My several thoughts on 458:
I wondered today why there are always new models with more and more whistles and bells.
State of integrated circuit layout design protection laws is as follows:
1. World: Washington Treaty or IPIC Treaty, was never signed
2. USA: 17 U.S.C. § 904, "rights in semiconductor mask works last 10 years"
3. EU: 87/54/EEC: "The exclusive rights shall come to an end in 10 years"
Let us investigate particular example of notorious DartZeel amplifiers.
DartZeel NHB-108 entered the market 15 years ago.
After 10 years anyone is allowed to make an amplifier at material cost of 100$ and sell it for, let's say, $600. That's exactly what Chinese do right now.
Someone in Switzerland has no other choice but to re-invent the same design, brand it Model 458 and sell that for, lets say $30.000.
Now, the question is: who are the real thieves: Chinese or Swiss?
Menthal inertia whispers: "Chinese", but the truth is, Swiss are taking big money for almost-the-same product that sells for 50 times less. In addition to that: as far as I understand NHB-108 was not really original work worth defence in the court of justice.
Therefore, may I ask the obvious question: is the new Dartzeel 458 really worth that money?
Or: is it legally and morally correct to purchase Chinese clones of 15 years old technologies? This is just a rethoric question, I know the answer: there is nothing wrong what we do With a Little Help from Our (Chinese) Friends.
I wondered today why there are always new models with more and more whistles and bells.
State of integrated circuit layout design protection laws is as follows:
1. World: Washington Treaty or IPIC Treaty, was never signed
2. USA: 17 U.S.C. § 904, "rights in semiconductor mask works last 10 years"
3. EU: 87/54/EEC: "The exclusive rights shall come to an end in 10 years"
Let us investigate particular example of notorious DartZeel amplifiers.
DartZeel NHB-108 entered the market 15 years ago.
After 10 years anyone is allowed to make an amplifier at material cost of 100$ and sell it for, let's say, $600. That's exactly what Chinese do right now.
Someone in Switzerland has no other choice but to re-invent the same design, brand it Model 458 and sell that for, lets say $30.000.
Now, the question is: who are the real thieves: Chinese or Swiss?
Menthal inertia whispers: "Chinese", but the truth is, Swiss are taking big money for almost-the-same product that sells for 50 times less. In addition to that: as far as I understand NHB-108 was not really original work worth defence in the court of justice.
Therefore, may I ask the obvious question: is the new Dartzeel 458 really worth that money?
Or: is it legally and morally correct to purchase Chinese clones of 15 years old technologies? This is just a rethoric question, I know the answer: there is nothing wrong what we do With a Little Help from Our (Chinese) Friends.
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Dear Berlusconi
What is really your point? Feeling bored? Do we need to pollute a technical thread with such discussions? Is a Patek worth the asking price? A Pagani Zonda? Does it matter?
You should open a thread discussing thievery and capitalism in a non-technical section of the forum. As if there are not enough threads already discussing ripoff prices in audio.
Are you personally affected? Victimised? Robbed by a Swiss manufacturer?
What is really your point? Feeling bored? Do we need to pollute a technical thread with such discussions? Is a Patek worth the asking price? A Pagani Zonda? Does it matter?
You should open a thread discussing thievery and capitalism in a non-technical section of the forum. As if there are not enough threads already discussing ripoff prices in audio.
Are you personally affected? Victimised? Robbed by a Swiss manufacturer?
Who cares? I think it is fine to replicate a circuit for yourself. I think the original darTZeel patents have since expired or are about to, so it would be fine to reuse the circuit. Building it with the same external design and selling it for a profit is murky to say the least.
Also, you got a few aspects of the story wrong. But, again, who cares?
Let us play DIO ( = do it ourselves – any reference to the Italian word for god is intentional)
Ah, no my dear Analog_sa, quite the contrary - I'm not bored, rather hyperactive, involved not just in hobby but also several industrial projects. I simply can't be bored.
I just want to underline two things: based on what I've heard here and elsewhere, the 458 seems to be yet another consumer product and I wondered is it worthy to skip from NHB-108 to 485. I guess I will continue to finish 108 with a pretty chassis. It is a technical question because any human activity must have some meaning otherwise isn't worthy the effort. Is it just an IP theft as I've head elsewhere.
I hope I was clear enough.
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The 458 has more power, better ability to drive difficult loads, less distortion due to more nfb. If you have easy speakers some of these might not be important. It is a very different amplifier and a much more demanding build.
My impression of the original is of clarity and unlimited power. The front panel display flickered through 4-5-800W and the sound did not get coarse or strained or lose any composure at all. It probably has other qualities as well, but the rest of the system was not exactly to my taste.
My impression of the original is of clarity and unlimited power. The front panel display flickered through 4-5-800W and the sound did not get coarse or strained or lose any composure at all. It probably has other qualities as well, but the rest of the system was not exactly to my taste.
Thanks my dear Analog_sa for this clarification. This was really helpful. 
I wasn't aware of these all substantial differences so I have thought: "Here we are: yet another iteration of the same-old-story" I had similar dilema when deciding among Krell KSA-50 and KSA-100. I have decided for KSA-50 because I haven't seen much incentive in just more powerful output with almost the same configuration.
Obviously, 485 is quite another pair of shoes someone would like to wear one day in the future or perhaps sooner.
I do really appreciate your patience and kind explanation to help us less skilled in this art.
I wasn't aware of these all substantial differences so I have thought: "Here we are: yet another iteration of the same-old-story" I had similar dilema when deciding among Krell KSA-50 and KSA-100. I have decided for KSA-50 because I haven't seen much incentive in just more powerful output with almost the same configuration.
Obviously, 485 is quite another pair of shoes someone would like to wear one day in the future or perhaps sooner.
I do really appreciate your patience and kind explanation to help us less skilled in this art.