Thank you very much for your gracious offer, but I already laid them out in my "primitive way". Later I will do the final on
eagle or even on Paint shop pro (I have donut patterns)
The only draw back to my method is very fine patterns.
I will post my "primitive's" tonight as muriatic is available
everywhere. Thanks
This post is such an inspiration. Been playing with spice and spending time on this site and thinking I might actually be able to design (more or less) and build (with some help) an amplifier. Its awsome how you guys help and learn from each other, and then test your designs (in spice and for real) and then play with them to make them better. Also the input from the "gurus" is invaluable, and very selfless. (no pun intended). Everyone keep up the great work!!!
PS: If I ever end up on a speaker wire post again sombody slap me!!!
PS: If I ever end up on a speaker wire post again sombody slap me!!!
MJL21193 said:Hi OS,
I'm tempted to do a layout for this for myself. Having spent the time to do roender's RMI for my own use (reception to my "tampering" with his design and layout has been, shall we say, "cold")
John,
You are welcome to do what amplifier you want beginning with my RMI-FC100, but please don't call it "roender's RMI" because your modifications are far away from my work and vision.
I don't want to be rude with you, but please try to understand me. RMI-FC100 was perfected with trial and error method - there was countless changes in amplifier schematics and five changes in PCB layout after final topology
BRg
Mihai
roender said:
I will rename it "Abomination".
Sorry for messing with your "art" but that's what I do. I respect the time and effort you have put into it, but at the end of the day it was not right for me as it was. The changes I made are for me after all, and I'm certainly not pushing it on anyone.
Most people would feel honoured or flattered that inspiration could be taken from their work but you seem offended. It was not my intention to offend you or denigrate your design or layout, but to take it and adapt it to my own purpose.
This is a "do it yourself" site, right?
PS: I've taken the offensive pic down from your thread.
a·bom·i·na·tion /əˌbɒməˈneɪʃən/
–noun
1. anything abominable; anything greatly disliked or abhorred.
2. intense aversion or loathing; detestation: He regarded lying with abomination.
3. a vile, shameful, or detestable action, condition, habit, etc.: Spitting in public is an abomination.
MJL21193 said:
You know I failed chemistry in high school.
It is not too critical. I would mix a small batch 1:1 and test it. I know that too strong a concentration of the acid will melt the laser transfer masking.
The mixture of peroxide and HCL will produce chlorine gas. Be sure to have adequate ventilation if you do this. Small amounts of chlorine gas can cause respiratory problems or sickness. Large amounts kill. Perhaps this is why this cheap and simple method is not used commercially.
If you want to produce your own ferric chloride you can first dissolve iron in HCL - I use very fine steel wool. Once this solution is made you add an oxidizer to make the final product. The oxidizer may be peroxide or pool chlorine. Either way if you have excess HCL you will get chlorine gas. See above warning. If you use an excess of steel wool you will minimize the chlorine gas generated.
USE ADEIQUTE VENTALATION IF YOU CHOOSE TO USE A NON COMMERCIAL PRODUCT TO ETCH BOARDS.
Steve
Steve Dunlap said:
Hi Steve,
A breathing mask can be fashioned from a rag soaked with urine - this will neutralize the chlorine gas.
Seriously, why would chlorine gas be produced?
For various reasons it's probably best not to do this kind of thing in your kitchen. The acid is aggressive and attacks nearly everything. Plastic containers, or better yet, heavy plastic zip lock bags should be used.
I mix up the smallest amount I can (I'm cheap) typically about 1 cup (250ml) for a smallish board. I use the solution just once, as I find it has lost much of it's effect after one use.
I've noticed the fumes start strong immediately, but die down very quickly until they a barely noticeable.
Hi Steve,
A breathing mask can be fashioned from a rag soaked with urine - this will neutralize the chlorine gas.
Seriously, why would chlorine gas be produced?
First, this is not my opinion. It is a fact.
2HCL + H2O2 gives 2 H2O + 2Cl
The equation varies depending on the oxidizer you use but you will always get water and Cl gas, if the oxidizer is strong enough. Peroxide is. Some people do not see this as obvious. I once hat to demonstrate this to a PhD. chemist before he would believe it.
Steve
Edit:
It is also not recommended that you dump the spent solution as the copper content can be considered hazardous wast. Check your local ordinances. Aluminum added to the solution will cause the Cu to precipitate out so the solution can be discarded safely.
A breathing mask can be fashioned from a rag soaked with urine - this will neutralize the chlorine gas.
Seriously, why would chlorine gas be produced?
First, this is not my opinion. It is a fact.
2HCL + H2O2 gives 2 H2O + 2Cl
The equation varies depending on the oxidizer you use but you will always get water and Cl gas, if the oxidizer is strong enough. Peroxide is. Some people do not see this as obvious. I once hat to demonstrate this to a PhD. chemist before he would believe it.
Steve
Edit:
It is also not recommended that you dump the spent solution as the copper content can be considered hazardous wast. Check your local ordinances. Aluminum added to the solution will cause the Cu to precipitate out so the solution can be discarded safely.
Well, like I said I fail chemistry so I'll take your word for it.
The fumes from the undiluted acid seem way stronger than the etchant mix. I cringe when I uncap the bottle. After pouring the acid into the peroxide the fumes almost immediately dissipate.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not down playing the risks involved with this. Getting a whiff of the fumes should give clear indication that breathing it is not a good idea.
The fumes from the undiluted acid seem way stronger than the etchant mix. I cringe when I uncap the bottle. After pouring the acid into the peroxide the fumes almost immediately dissipate.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not down playing the risks involved with this. Getting a whiff of the fumes should give clear indication that breathing it is not a good idea.
cbdb said:
Sorry, not even close. First, mustard gas is a chlorinated organic sulphur containing compound and Cl is not. However chlorine gas was used in warfare to kill troops. Secondly, the presence of Cl gas in an aqueous solution does not produce bleach. Commercial bleach is sodium hypochlorite and stabilisers in water, usually at 1.5% for home laundry. In the case that was being discussed the presence of an acetic medium will prevent the production of bleach.
MJL21193:
I understand you are not playing with it. I was merely giving a warning. This has the potential to do harm (as does working with electricity) so please be careful.
Steve
Steve Dunlap said:
No worries Steve, I'm an old pro at this now.
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I've etched quite a few boards
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Most definitely an Opto-isolator/IC based protection circuit to
separate our "schoolbook amps" from our valuable loudspeakers.
And using FA2 with various flavors of OPS's (MOSFET, maybe
even those dreaded T-traks)..
I definitly trust in MJL's advice because I had my start working
in a chemical plant designing emission control systems decades
ago..(GE plastics) Me and the wife discussed it and I will not
even do this in the house. Not being chemically illiterate myself
I know the reaction and anticipate small amounts of gas because
the copper combines with most of the chlorine (green color).
Gloves, barn (ventilation) and prior experiance with muriatic
will guide me well. Thanks for all the concern, it is good, as
these chemicals and voltages ( tell the kids "DC bites and doesn't
let go) can definitely kill you!!!
Yes , when you make your initial "concoction" ,best to do that in the driveway, but after you add the copper most of the reaction
will be between the HCL/copper.(peroxide is the Catalyst)
It looks like MJL gets great results with this method and I see
it as a wonderful alternative in a non-competitive, anti-DIY (walmart/radio shack) environment..
OS
ostripper said:
1/1 with 21% lowes $5.99 muriatic + $.69
walmart peroxide ...bammm..2min instant boards..WOW..
can begin to populate them now..
OS
Those boards are pure late 60's art work man.
I emptied the shelf at the nearest Walmart and got a funny look from the check out girl. 9 of those 1 litre brown bottles - the cheapest place I could buy it ($1.69 a bottle here though). I can get 1 gallon of acid for $4.99 so the whole process winds up being really cheap.
Are you sure about the concentration of the muriatic acid? Mine says "20* baume" but in brackets it says 31.44% HCL.
Sounds like it etched pretty fast - 2 minutes.
Good luck with the first try - I always manage to do something wrong.
That "baume is how much lighter than water it is ,mine says
34% baume and only 21% HCL. I "played" with it, found that
if you throw a penny into the HCL before adding peroxide
"smoke on the water" (vigorous reaction) is less.
Some of those 60-70's amps are still going strong...
http://www.ampslab.com/used_amps.htm
My style is glorified in the old altec lansings and SAE amps
but with modern parts i might get something better..
OS
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