Hi Sandy,
I believe truly that the 3bjt could sound good but may be dependant on topology, and or including possible sonic limitations and or colouration of the rest of the circuit. As far as sonics go, I again today tried the 3bjt widlar again and changed the diode back in just to see if the outcome would be any different and to reaffirm my findings, unfortunately I cannot digest the incisiveness of the highs and the fact sibilance seemed to be highlighted, gone was that natural sounding 3d soundstage from what I heard. Everything sounded very clear, but almost a little hyped up, especially the highs. It may measure alot better than the standard or diode connected but as Aksa shows, the THD figures really dont complete the picture, if that were the case tubes would be resigned to the garbage bins...My first true DIY was a blameless that was modified out the ying yang, but dull and flat in stock form, measured well, but didnt make me want to enjoy my cd collection... Perhaps the diode connection adds some H2??, this would be interesting to further look into, any takers?..
Colin
I believe truly that the 3bjt could sound good but may be dependant on topology, and or including possible sonic limitations and or colouration of the rest of the circuit. As far as sonics go, I again today tried the 3bjt widlar again and changed the diode back in just to see if the outcome would be any different and to reaffirm my findings, unfortunately I cannot digest the incisiveness of the highs and the fact sibilance seemed to be highlighted, gone was that natural sounding 3d soundstage from what I heard. Everything sounded very clear, but almost a little hyped up, especially the highs. It may measure alot better than the standard or diode connected but as Aksa shows, the THD figures really dont complete the picture, if that were the case tubes would be resigned to the garbage bins...My first true DIY was a blameless that was modified out the ying yang, but dull and flat in stock form, measured well, but didnt make me want to enjoy my cd collection... Perhaps the diode connection adds some H2??, this would be interesting to further look into, any takers?..
Colin
I guess I've beaten this to death in the real world, even going to
the trouble of soldering a switch across the diode/helper.
My conclusion is the same as gaetan8888 , all 3 interact
with each other (VAS,CM,LTP) after all this adjusting, trimming
,compensating ...I'm steering toward fixing the cause of this
balance problem.. the VAS.
Using a balanced differential EF'd VAS seems to be the route,
maybe even still using a CM to help with beta mismatch
in the LTP. Mr. Chau at Ampslab and his customers
seem to really like this topology.
The little 2 cent diode that started this thread is my choice
both for its utter simplicity and its subtle effect, the 3T CM is
too bright (after listening for a couple days).I'm sure I could of
spent more time to implement it correctly, but I'd rather
build something that directly addresses the issue instead of
compensating for it.
the trouble of soldering a switch across the diode/helper.
My conclusion is the same as gaetan8888 , all 3 interact
with each other (VAS,CM,LTP) after all this adjusting, trimming
,compensating ...I'm steering toward fixing the cause of this
balance problem.. the VAS.
Using a balanced differential EF'd VAS seems to be the route,
maybe even still using a CM to help with beta mismatch
in the LTP. Mr. Chau at Ampslab and his customers
seem to really like this topology.
The little 2 cent diode that started this thread is my choice
both for its utter simplicity and its subtle effect, the 3T CM is
too bright (after listening for a couple days).I'm sure I could of
spent more time to implement it correctly, but I'd rather
build something that directly addresses the issue instead of
compensating for it.
Ostripper!,
Nice to see you are using your ears!, kudos a plenty as this part beats any sims program out there, you have unleashed the human aspect into music reproduction, a hard feat for some but neccessary. Without waxing lyrically into the dark side of subleties, music without the romance is merely test tones, dont get me wrong, my main goal is absolutely 100% naturality in reproduction but as you have discovered yourself brightness (highlights) become apparent after the first rush wears off, glad to see I am not deaf yet. I think there is merit to the Halcro idea largely, a simple diode, 2 cents?? give or take, an 18,000 dollar price tag, what dent will a 10 cent bjt make on this picture??, not much if it sounds that much better...The true test to me has always been, can I live with it and enjoy it for weeks and months on end, with anticipation...
Colin
Nice to see you are using your ears!, kudos a plenty as this part beats any sims program out there, you have unleashed the human aspect into music reproduction, a hard feat for some but neccessary. Without waxing lyrically into the dark side of subleties, music without the romance is merely test tones, dont get me wrong, my main goal is absolutely 100% naturality in reproduction but as you have discovered yourself brightness (highlights) become apparent after the first rush wears off, glad to see I am not deaf yet. I think there is merit to the Halcro idea largely, a simple diode, 2 cents?? give or take, an 18,000 dollar price tag, what dent will a 10 cent bjt make on this picture??, not much if it sounds that much better...The true test to me has always been, can I live with it and enjoy it for weeks and months on end, with anticipation...
Colin
I have used a switch....using a mirror and a bootstrapp
absolutelly same currents.... switching from one to the other i felt bootstrapp better.
Then i have asked friends to evaluate...i have operated switch informing them "this is A".... and "This is B"....... bootstrapp was the winner once again.
Test repeated having the maid, my wife and my daugther...result was the same.
Test repeated with 5 girls and boys..all teenagers... result was the same.
SO... in my mind no more doubts...bootstrapp sounds better for humans from Brazil (if you imagine there are different humans elsewere)
More treble to the mirror..strange and deeper, more detailed, more focused into sound stage..but fake and strange....more nice sonics and deeper bass to the bootstrapp..also the amplifier distorts different when enter the clipping.... in my imagination may measure better the mirrored.... but i am not a scope, nor waveform monitor and no distortion analiser..so i do not care if measure perfect or not.
I remember perfectly... no one voted for the mirrored one!
No!... i have not inverted my switch...maybe..why not?... the ones loves mirrors will blame my switch...so... i am offering this to them in advance.
regards,
Carlos
absolutelly same currents.... switching from one to the other i felt bootstrapp better.
Then i have asked friends to evaluate...i have operated switch informing them "this is A".... and "This is B"....... bootstrapp was the winner once again.
Test repeated having the maid, my wife and my daugther...result was the same.
Test repeated with 5 girls and boys..all teenagers... result was the same.
SO... in my mind no more doubts...bootstrapp sounds better for humans from Brazil (if you imagine there are different humans elsewere)
More treble to the mirror..strange and deeper, more detailed, more focused into sound stage..but fake and strange....more nice sonics and deeper bass to the bootstrapp..also the amplifier distorts different when enter the clipping.... in my imagination may measure better the mirrored.... but i am not a scope, nor waveform monitor and no distortion analiser..so i do not care if measure perfect or not.
I remember perfectly... no one voted for the mirrored one!
No!... i have not inverted my switch...maybe..why not?... the ones loves mirrors will blame my switch...so... i am offering this to them in advance.
regards,
Carlos
jam, no
my mailbox is not at all full. i receive emails from members every now and then.
only restriction for www.operamail.com is
- max 2 MB attachment, - total size of mailbox 3 MB
so, if somebody sends me one 2MB file .. my mailbox is suddenly 67% FULL
i am not one email-man!!!
best if you use your member account in my own forum:
http://lineupaudio.freehostia.com/forum/
If you PM me, use my gromanswe alias in my freehostia forum.
Because the admin there 'lineup' .. is way too busy
I did not email you. Because I do not want to start searching for your mail-adress
---------------------------
edit:
well, one of my mailboxes were actually full. because a friend had sent me 3 very big images.
Probably was this box you used .. try again! I have Deleted those images mails.
my mailbox is not at all full. i receive emails from members every now and then.
only restriction for www.operamail.com is
- max 2 MB attachment, - total size of mailbox 3 MB
so, if somebody sends me one 2MB file .. my mailbox is suddenly 67% FULL
i am not one email-man!!!
best if you use your member account in my own forum:
http://lineupaudio.freehostia.com/forum/
If you PM me, use my gromanswe alias in my freehostia forum.
Because the admin there 'lineup' .. is way too busy
I did not email you. Because I do not want to start searching for your mail-adress
---------------------------
edit:
well, one of my mailboxes were actually full. because a friend had sent me 3 very big images.
Probably was this box you used .. try again! I have Deleted those images mails.
Re: I have used a switch....using a mirror and a bootstrapp
Carlos,
Where did you put your mirror/bootstrap (as load for VAS ?) and what type of mirror did you use?
It is a well known fact that a CM perform not so well when is used as a CCS, in comparation with a BJT+LED CCS.
Cheers,
Mihai
destroyer X said:
Carlos,
Where did you put your mirror/bootstrap (as load for VAS ?) and what type of mirror did you use?
It is a well known fact that a CM perform not so well when is used as a CCS, in comparation with a BJT+LED CCS.
Cheers,
Mihai
Yeah. Carlos.
Me wonders, too
bootstrap often performs same function as current source
and mostly used in VAS
a current mirror can be used in input and/or in VAS
and even if you can use a mirror for current source
we usually make a distinktion, difference between CURR MIRROR and CURR SOURCE
Me wonders, too
bootstrap often performs same function as current source
and mostly used in VAS
a current mirror can be used in input and/or in VAS
and even if you can use a mirror for current source
we usually make a distinktion, difference between CURR MIRROR and CURR SOURCE
Roender,Lineup
I think Carlos must be talking about the VAS stage, my findings werent as much deeper Bass per se as a slightly wetter more tuneful Bass reproduction. I would have to agree with Carlos from a VAS standpoint, Bootstrap sounds good, then the fun starts with dimensioning and Capacitor experimentation...This is part of what makes this so much fun, dissecting the circuit blocks, designing initially based on theory, then weeding out the clear winners which sometimes may not measure superior, but then that depends on which measurements each party holds sacred. Reading an interview with Bruce Candy of Halcro, he even realizes the merit of higher orders of musical H2 over odd harmonics hence why the front end is Single ended in the Halcro, but even so THD is absurdly low overall.
Colin
I think Carlos must be talking about the VAS stage, my findings werent as much deeper Bass per se as a slightly wetter more tuneful Bass reproduction. I would have to agree with Carlos from a VAS standpoint, Bootstrap sounds good, then the fun starts with dimensioning and Capacitor experimentation...This is part of what makes this so much fun, dissecting the circuit blocks, designing initially based on theory, then weeding out the clear winners which sometimes may not measure superior, but then that depends on which measurements each party holds sacred. Reading an interview with Bruce Candy of Halcro, he even realizes the merit of higher orders of musical H2 over odd harmonics hence why the front end is Single ended in the Halcro, but even so THD is absurdly low overall.
Colin
Yes... i was talking about VAS mirrored in the place to use a bootstrapp there
regards,
Of course we can produce this mirror using a CCS... the circuit is not active...just produces current to the VAS and share voltages.
This BD139 you see..it has a resistance that is going to the negative rail (10K)
Precision I have used this circuit instead of a bootstrapp.
Carlos
regards,
Of course we can produce this mirror using a CCS... the circuit is not active...just produces current to the VAS and share voltages.
This BD139 you see..it has a resistance that is going to the negative rail (10K)
Precision I have used this circuit instead of a bootstrapp.
Carlos
Attachments
Because i have tested and resulted better sonics into the bootstrapp
then, my last amplifier is using bootstrapp.... this one the DHR Turbo
regards,
Carlos
....................................................................................................
My comments are about the VAS only...nothing related the input.
then, my last amplifier is using bootstrapp.... this one the DHR Turbo
regards,
Carlos
....................................................................................................
My comments are about the VAS only...nothing related the input.
Attachments
I have made more amplifiers Roender..and many of them used CCS
They sound bad.
Worse than bootstrapp.
May measure better...i do not care how they measure... this is conversation between enginneers...i am a DIY, an audiophile.
You do not need to agree or believe... test by yourself and be happy with your own results....please, never believe me or anyone...test those things by yourself.... if have tested and conclude the opposite i had into my tests made... and very well made..for sure was a biased result...test once again with other guys evaluating and do not instruct the testing.
My preference is to see people testing their ideas...you know.... those things people say, alike "I think", or "I believe" and very different from "I Know"....and this last one, only using ears, and other personnal ears... we are biased.. our judgement is not fair.... humans not fair.
I do not like to discuss or challenges... i know..you made just a simple question... was answered and i will not answer this subject anymore, neither for you or other folk... i was very clear...no reasons to answers..so, they seem the start of provocations for a discussion..not my style.
I do not ask people to do things i have not done... i use to test everything, i do not trust my own shadow projected into the ground because of ligth.... your amplifier was tested, was listened... i believe you use to test other options too.... this is logic, this is fair and this is not biased.... also pure science.
regards,
Carlos
They sound bad.
Worse than bootstrapp.
May measure better...i do not care how they measure... this is conversation between enginneers...i am a DIY, an audiophile.
You do not need to agree or believe... test by yourself and be happy with your own results....please, never believe me or anyone...test those things by yourself.... if have tested and conclude the opposite i had into my tests made... and very well made..for sure was a biased result...test once again with other guys evaluating and do not instruct the testing.
My preference is to see people testing their ideas...you know.... those things people say, alike "I think", or "I believe" and very different from "I Know"....and this last one, only using ears, and other personnal ears... we are biased.. our judgement is not fair.... humans not fair.
I do not like to discuss or challenges... i know..you made just a simple question... was answered and i will not answer this subject anymore, neither for you or other folk... i was very clear...no reasons to answers..so, they seem the start of provocations for a discussion..not my style.
I do not ask people to do things i have not done... i use to test everything, i do not trust my own shadow projected into the ground because of ligth.... your amplifier was tested, was listened... i believe you use to test other options too.... this is logic, this is fair and this is not biased.... also pure science.
regards,
Carlos
ooops... i forgot to say.... into the mean time people goes into the traditional
brain storm, or group thinking as they use to say... into my understanting is a hidden duel with another name... the fake man of cooperational group thinking....... the "self" is there more than the technology almost all the time... and it is not Doctor Self... i would be happy if was the Doctor.... the Self present is "myself".... "me good!".... "I know and you know".... well.... during that time spent..... people goes thinking into CCS and the "King of audio", Mister Hugh Dean goes feeding people with some ideas...but in the reality.. his amplifiers are using (or were till last monthes) bootstrapp... so, while people goes discussing and not testing..he already tested and he is sure about and is beeing hardly used... advantage to him...his product will sound always the best because he found the best sonics solutions..made listening and not only reading books or operating simulators... people is searching wrong place.... he do not loose his time to convince folks...he knows people will not believe.... at the end..this is much better for his business despite he would prefer people testing and knowing things into the real world in place to behave that way... well...this is what i think about him...but i can be wrong too.....if people know that, say..have sure, having made tests...they would be using bootstrapp.
Last week my Orkut audio group has concluded the same... i have made the options and asked them to test A and B... and said to them no one was my idea...so.. they had not reasons to vote on my bootstrapp (my amplifier use that)... also i said i am not using BECAUSE more parts... in the place of 2 resistances and a capacitor some more parts... something semiconductor...and they have accepted my "because" not to be hardly influenced by my own uses... they have found bootstrapp better too.
Hugh has scientific mind...he wants to know why people think this way... and he is around to see that..but he has his own beliefs..and different from many folks (not all), he has discovered testing, not discussing.
It is almost unbeliavable to me how people ( a lot of guys do that) behave this way... if they decide to use 1/10 or the energy spent discussing or showing themselves holding soldering iron and testing things they will be much more productive
enjoy your life folks...i will have a spin around with the new car to see the girls passing by...you bother yourself, if you want, with the best idea to be applied to sonics...maybe hard winter and may be good to stay at home...i will go out...sunny day... shinny day...girls are beautifull waving into the streets, nice, delicious...... now it is time for fun to big fat charlie.... to clean my eyes with women beauty.
Hummmm... car smelling plastic...brand new car.... 23 kilometers only... is made in Brazil, in Curitiba, south of this country... place that has German, Russian, Italian, Spanish, Polish and French towns and people from imigrating families that came from Europe during bad times you had in Europe... they came to our peacefull and sweet land, were people hat to discuss... we want to make love and not war... the car is Renault Pajero here, not parrero.
Carlos
brain storm, or group thinking as they use to say... into my understanting is a hidden duel with another name... the fake man of cooperational group thinking....... the "self" is there more than the technology almost all the time... and it is not Doctor Self... i would be happy if was the Doctor.... the Self present is "myself".... "me good!".... "I know and you know".... well.... during that time spent..... people goes thinking into CCS and the "King of audio", Mister Hugh Dean goes feeding people with some ideas...but in the reality.. his amplifiers are using (or were till last monthes) bootstrapp... so, while people goes discussing and not testing..he already tested and he is sure about and is beeing hardly used... advantage to him...his product will sound always the best because he found the best sonics solutions..made listening and not only reading books or operating simulators... people is searching wrong place.... he do not loose his time to convince folks...he knows people will not believe.... at the end..this is much better for his business despite he would prefer people testing and knowing things into the real world in place to behave that way... well...this is what i think about him...but i can be wrong too.....if people know that, say..have sure, having made tests...they would be using bootstrapp.
Last week my Orkut audio group has concluded the same... i have made the options and asked them to test A and B... and said to them no one was my idea...so.. they had not reasons to vote on my bootstrapp (my amplifier use that)... also i said i am not using BECAUSE more parts... in the place of 2 resistances and a capacitor some more parts... something semiconductor...and they have accepted my "because" not to be hardly influenced by my own uses... they have found bootstrapp better too.
Hugh has scientific mind...he wants to know why people think this way... and he is around to see that..but he has his own beliefs..and different from many folks (not all), he has discovered testing, not discussing.
It is almost unbeliavable to me how people ( a lot of guys do that) behave this way... if they decide to use 1/10 or the energy spent discussing or showing themselves holding soldering iron and testing things they will be much more productive
enjoy your life folks...i will have a spin around with the new car to see the girls passing by...you bother yourself, if you want, with the best idea to be applied to sonics...maybe hard winter and may be good to stay at home...i will go out...sunny day... shinny day...girls are beautifull waving into the streets, nice, delicious...... now it is time for fun to big fat charlie.... to clean my eyes with women beauty.
Hummmm... car smelling plastic...brand new car.... 23 kilometers only... is made in Brazil, in Curitiba, south of this country... place that has German, Russian, Italian, Spanish, Polish and French towns and people from imigrating families that came from Europe during bad times you had in Europe... they came to our peacefull and sweet land, were people hat to discuss... we want to make love and not war... the car is Renault Pajero here, not parrero.
Carlos
Attachments
Nice car... that one is Dacia...the one i have bougth is Renault Sandero
Sorry, my mistake... the name baptised here is Sandero...not Pajero...They may be almost the same you have in Romania.... but the one i have bougth was made here, 95 percent of Brazilian parts, produced in Brazil.
We use 1 litter motors, 16 valves, squared motors, CHT, multipoint fuel injection and they are "Flex"... you can put gasoline or alcohol (from sugar cane, also made in Brazil... in US they use another name and it is made from Corn)... these fuel can enter the tank in any ratio.... you can use one or other or both of them mixed in any proportion, in any ratio.... power is 88 horsepower (CV here)... square because up down movement has the same dimension as the piston diameter.. this increases power into lower rpm.
Full equiped, all modern things included, electrically driven glasses, heaters, air conditioned, gaz shock absorbers,air bag, doors lock eletrically operated inside the car, hidraulical breaks and clutch, 5 speed (manual the way my people loves) filter to darken glasses, computer controller and computer speed control, digital panel and some meters...all the stuff alike adjusting seats and back trunk is opened electrically and some other good things to give you confort and pleasant driving.... some parts of this car is made by Nissan... the speed box is from Nissan and the metal case... the extructure is from Nissan (Japan)
Price here is popular price here, because 1 litter motors have reduction off taxes to reduce country fuel consumption (we do not import gasoline anymore..we are exporting excesses of production).
Very expensive here:
472.413.814 ROL
47.241 RON
15.461 USD
Around 38.000 Brazilian Reais...means 108 minimum salary, minimum payment here...means 9 years of payment to buy...well.. we were saving money for 9 years to buy... we earn many times more than minimum... was saving to pay the car cash.
Sorry the of topic..but Hugh loves automobiles too... mine is noisy related the transmission, gear box... motor not noisy and internal insulation goes to 85 dB.... very good to talk and to listen music inside.
regards,
Carlos
Sorry, my mistake... the name baptised here is Sandero...not Pajero...They may be almost the same you have in Romania.... but the one i have bougth was made here, 95 percent of Brazilian parts, produced in Brazil.
We use 1 litter motors, 16 valves, squared motors, CHT, multipoint fuel injection and they are "Flex"... you can put gasoline or alcohol (from sugar cane, also made in Brazil... in US they use another name and it is made from Corn)... these fuel can enter the tank in any ratio.... you can use one or other or both of them mixed in any proportion, in any ratio.... power is 88 horsepower (CV here)... square because up down movement has the same dimension as the piston diameter.. this increases power into lower rpm.
Full equiped, all modern things included, electrically driven glasses, heaters, air conditioned, gaz shock absorbers,air bag, doors lock eletrically operated inside the car, hidraulical breaks and clutch, 5 speed (manual the way my people loves) filter to darken glasses, computer controller and computer speed control, digital panel and some meters...all the stuff alike adjusting seats and back trunk is opened electrically and some other good things to give you confort and pleasant driving.... some parts of this car is made by Nissan... the speed box is from Nissan and the metal case... the extructure is from Nissan (Japan)
Price here is popular price here, because 1 litter motors have reduction off taxes to reduce country fuel consumption (we do not import gasoline anymore..we are exporting excesses of production).
Very expensive here:
472.413.814 ROL
47.241 RON
15.461 USD
Around 38.000 Brazilian Reais...means 108 minimum salary, minimum payment here...means 9 years of payment to buy...well.. we were saving money for 9 years to buy... we earn many times more than minimum... was saving to pay the car cash.
Sorry the of topic..but Hugh loves automobiles too... mine is noisy related the transmission, gear box... motor not noisy and internal insulation goes to 85 dB.... very good to talk and to listen music inside.
regards,
Carlos
