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Old 25th January 2021, 06:03 AM   #931
kimmosto is offline kimmosto  Finland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawelp View Post
If you attached a well-behaved 4-way doesn't it mean you also pay quite a bit attention to it ?
I design minimum phase speaker if that's possible with selected drivers and crossover technology. All combinations do not allow minimum phase design with practical methods. In those cases I try to keep excess group delay below ~2 ms at 100 Hz.

Effect of timing to dynamics is more perceptible by tactile sense than ears, and dynamics depends on some other factors such as dynamics/compression of drivers and acoustical design. Minimum phase design is far from priority #1 if the other factors are favorable for dynamics so acoustical 2nd order for the lower and 4th order for the higher crossover point in 3-way are usually good enough, and no need to make compromises elsewhere to force speaker to minimum phase.

I assume you meant physical time alignment? That is meaningless as a primary design parameter because it does not define timing. You can't read timing from physical distance difference(s). Excess phase and excess group delay responses show timing compared to minimum phase design which is valid goal (though not necessarily priority #1 as mentioned earlier). In the contrary, timing could be the only hope in case drivers and acoustical concept are weak and loose. In addition, speaker where all these are flawless may sound disturbingly dynamic. That is very rare.

Last edited by kimmosto; 25th January 2021 at 06:06 AM.
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Old 25th January 2021, 05:15 PM   #932
Ultima Thule is offline Ultima Thule  Europe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmosto View Post
Effect of timing to dynamics is more perceptible by tactile sense than ears, and dynamics depends on some other factors such as dynamics/compression of drivers and acoustical design.
Hi Kimmo, I am not sure what kind of phenomenon effect of timing to dynamics is, does it mean that the acoustic point changes depending on matters such as VC position in the magnet gap?
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Old 26th January 2021, 04:26 AM   #933
kimmosto is offline kimmosto  Finland
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^No. Bad timing (=other than flat excess group delay) spreads transients to longer time which reduces energy at the peaks and increases probability that also peak level is reduced. Assuming that program material contains wide-band transients; percussions, piano etc.
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Old 28th January 2021, 09:41 AM   #934
pawelp is offline pawelp  Poland
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Could you please give me feedback if again my EE knowledge and passive xover assumptions are correct: as far as the dips correction (local dips below the target average FR level in the region covered by only one driver) is concerned the only way to do it is to lower the overall efficiency and then use a reverse notch (bandpass filter) that could locally lower the impedance in this region and effectively boost locally FR ?
If the above is correct then it seems to have little sense with a passive xover it is rather not done in practice ? So dip correction make more sense with DSP (although along similar principles but with much more flexibility) ?

And one more tool question - the fact the acoustic centres are displaced in space has impact on the overall speaker FR but it is not possible to model in XSim ? So XSIm model assumes all the drivers are coincident in space ?
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Old 28th January 2021, 09:55 AM   #935
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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Why do you have the dip? Room problems are usually not a good choice to fix with a crossover.

On the other hand you can use resonance to boost a response to the target level.
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Old 28th January 2021, 04:20 PM   #936
pawelp is offline pawelp  Poland
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It is not due to room, my Seas coaxial has a dip at 9k probably due to it being coaxial and mechanical consequences of tweeter location.
I have tried to boost it with an RLC but it did not work in XSim and I thought it does not work by principle - if the RLC should work by providing lower impedance at some resonance region then it is not gonna be effective since there is no higher impedance to work against - the tweeter xover is low impedance in this region as well ?
If I am lost EE-wise again please suggest what kind of circuit for 9k dip should I try ?
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Old 28th January 2021, 04:27 PM   #937
dlr is offline dlr  United States
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Look at the off-axis. On-axis will probably be worst for a coaxial. A smoother off-axis design point may be warranted. A small degree off-axis may be the best listening position.

Dave
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Old 28th January 2021, 04:52 PM   #938
diyAchim is offline diyAchim
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Does the dip do anything bad acoustically? I wouldn't think so, and probably even with active EQ it would be hard to flatten the dip and unpleasant to listen to the corrected driver.

Bumps you can flatten nicely with a notch and it sounds better. Dips normally go unnoticed.
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Old 28th January 2021, 06:25 PM   #939
ernperkins is offline ernperkins  United States
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Could you post your XSim .dxo file? It would help us to see all the details. Also, what Seas coax are you using?

Last edited by ernperkins; 28th January 2021 at 06:25 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 28th January 2021, 07:53 PM   #940
pawelp is offline pawelp  Poland
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Dxo attached, the driver is Seas MR18REX.
The FRs are scanned from the datasheet.
Attached Files
File Type: dxo PP_24-STY_MID_TWT_DIY.dxo (70.7 KB, 4 views)
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