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rePhase, a loudspeaker phase linearization, EQ and FIR filtering tool
rePhase, a loudspeaker phase linearization, EQ and FIR filtering tool
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Old 20th April 2017, 09:29 PM   #1971
BYRTT is online now BYRTT  Denmark
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rePhase, a loudspeaker phase linearization, EQ and FIR filtering tool
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrKlinky View Post
.....Presumably the global eq will upset the phase a little.....
If one have a fully calibrated DSP steered speaker system then think global EQ (IIR) must be most right way to correct tonality because whatever it do to phase will be presented same to all speaker systems pass bands, adjusting level per pass band afterwards for correcting tonality will ruin systems pre calibration for driver offset and show up as new small ripple in phase/group delay plots, and having that offset set correct in a DSP system is normal an improvement compared to non stepped baffle's and analog XO systems.
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Old 20th April 2017, 09:36 PM   #1972
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Originally Posted by fluid View Post
DSP correction only works correctly for one point in space, which is why people use multiple measurements to average out the effects so that the correction is valid over a much greater area.
IME, multiple measurements and spatial averaging <=> One measurement only but applying very smooth corrections.

One point valid correction is NO valid correction: does not work, even at one point in space.

Forget about perfection, corrections that "nail it" and naivetes of that kind!
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Last edited by GDO; 20th April 2017 at 09:38 PM.
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Old 20th April 2017, 09:36 PM   #1973
mark100 is offline mark100  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BYRTT View Post
adjusting level per pass band afterwards for correcting tonality will ruin systems pre calibration for driver offset and show up as new small ripple in phase/group delay plots, and having that offset set correct in a DSP system is normal an improvement compared to non stepped baffle's and analog XO systems.
Hi BYRTT, Not if drivers' phase are sufficiently flat (and zero) through extended crossover regions. Offsets don't change.... IMO this is some of the beauty of what can be done with rephase driver-by-driver

Last edited by mark100; 20th April 2017 at 09:40 PM.
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Old 20th April 2017, 09:53 PM   #1974
leoman is offline leoman  United States
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Originally Posted by pos View Post
Hello leoman

Interesting.
What version of rephase are you using?
rephase's flat top implemention had a major bug prior to version 1.0.0.

Flat top is an interesting windowing function with the overhang in its attenuation, but it also leaves less taps for the actual correction.
Hi POS,

Maybe I'm just noticing a reduced functional tap count then! Time for more testing on this end too I guess

PS I'm using 1.2.0.
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Old 20th April 2017, 10:13 PM   #1975
BYRTT is online now BYRTT  Denmark
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rePhase, a loudspeaker phase linearization, EQ and FIR filtering tool
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark100 View Post
Hi BYRTT, Not if drivers' phase are sufficiently flat (and zero) through extended crossover regions. Offsets don't change.... IMO this is some of the beauty of what can be done with rephase driver-by-driver
Thanks that sound nice admit haven't yet tried out that compensate model but have experienced the model with textbook IIR XO's slopes compensated FIR filter linearization, and these exercises show a change in pass band level will mean new settings for offset.
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Old 21st April 2017, 04:21 AM   #1976
fluid is offline fluid  Australia
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Originally Posted by GDO View Post
IME, multiple measurements and spatial averaging <=> One measurement only but applying very smooth corrections.
That is the point of multiple measurements that it averages the differences. So yes a single point measurement with broad correction will work out to be similar. Which works best will probably depend on the room that it is used in.

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One point valid correction is NO valid correction: does not work, even at one point in space.
That makes no sense, it is valid for that point in space but I agree that it is not a good way to go about correction.

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Forget about perfection, corrections that "nail it" and naivetes of that kind!
Just because I tried to explain a concept in response to a question doesn't mean that I think it is a good idea. For myself I am only interested in overall corrections that work across a large area and have no intention of "nailing it" with a perfect single point correction.

BTW whether it is intentional or not your posts come across as condescending. Insinuating that people are naive, ignorant, stupid or idiotic is a good way to get a negative response from them. I find you tend to catch more flies with honey, try it you might like it
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Old 21st April 2017, 05:36 AM   #1977
wesayso is online now wesayso  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDO View Post
IME, multiple measurements and spatial averaging <=> One measurement only but applying very smooth corrections.

One point valid correction is NO valid correction: does not work, even at one point in space.

Forget about perfection, corrections that "nail it" and naivetes of that kind!
So those of us using a one spot measurement as the base for DSP (while being able to check what it does off axis, it isn't that hard) must be out of their minds?

I'll throw in a different view. Expecting DSP to be able to solve all room problems is asking for trouble.
Once you do consider the speaker and room together and hunt down the early reflections (trough measurements) even a single point measurement viewed with the right type of windowing starts to make a lot more sense.

In a room/speaker situation where things change faster once we move out of the sweet spot I'd recommend using multiple measurements as the base for DSP.

What might work varies so much with the speakers used and all of the different rooms we all have (and what we can do with it) that it's save to say there isn't a one size fits all solution.

There will always be people skeptical of using any form of DSP or EQ at all. I just hope they never find out how much of it was used to mix/master their favourite songs.
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Old 21st April 2017, 07:46 AM   #1978
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fluid View Post
BTW whether it is intentional or not your posts come across as condescending. Insinuating that people are naive, ignorant, stupid or idiotic is a good way to get a negative response from them. I find you tend to catch more flies with honey, try it you might like it
I didn't say "people are naive (me not...)". But there exist indeed a wellknown kind of fetichism which consists in... deafly flaten a room curve removing any bump or deep in it, or worse even the fetichism of the pure perfect impulse/step response.

To what extent what we see on those beautiful graphs matches what we hear?

To what extent is the feeling of obtaining an audible inprovement of the sound is influenced by the cosmetic elegance of an almost flat curve?

I suppose we are all aware of the good old before/after advertising trick...

Click the image to open in full size.
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Last edited by GDO; 21st April 2017 at 07:49 AM.
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Old 21st April 2017, 09:26 AM   #1979
fluid is offline fluid  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDO View Post
I didn't say "people are naive (me not...)".
No you just linked it directly with DSP correction

Quote:
But there exist indeed a wellknown kind of fetichism which consists in... deafly flaten a room curve removing any bump or deep in it, or worse even the fetichism of the pure perfect impulse/step response.
There is a lot of research to suggest that a flatter frequency response is preferred by most listeners. Which is most likely the reason why most strive to achieve that. There is also nothing wrong theoretically with trying to reproduce the transient response of the original file. As long as something else is not lost along the way then I don't see the harm.

Quote:
To what extent what we see on those beautiful graphs matches what we hear?
Impossible to say without actually getting to hear it.

Quote:
To what extent is the feeling of obtaining an audible inprovement of the sound is influenced by the cosmetic elegance of an almost flat curve?
That's why it is important to listen as well as measure otherwise the answer to perfect sound would just be to press measure and correct.

I think what is more important is to try and understand why something sounds better and then to find a way to measure that so it can be repeated.

Quote:
I suppose we are all aware of the good old before/after advertising trick...
That looks like Dirac which is one of the better automated room correction systems as it uses multiple measurements to base the correction on. But that does look to be a brute force use of the correction which is clearly not ideal. In that case it probably does not sound as good as it looks.

It's just not helpful to run down other people's attempts to improve their system without explaining what you would do differently to make it better. It's easy to pick faults but much harder to give real answers.

But this thread is meant to be about the rephase program itself which is starting to disappear in the distance so that's enough from me.
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Old 21st April 2017, 09:48 AM   #1980
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fluid View Post
But this thread is meant to be about the rephase program itself which is starting to disappear in the distance so that's enough from me.
Take it easy and do not shoot the messenger!

I often fooled myself to believe that my system seemed to sound "BETTER" when it only sounded "DIFFERENT".

My mind was influenced by some obscure rational arguments that drove me to the conclusion that the change was for positively better. But my ears were never quite sure...

Imho, the good thing with Rephase is that it does not come with an automated system for inversion and processing of the room curve, and lets the user choose what corrections he thinks necessary.
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