Hi all,
So we all have used Rockwool or glass fibre for treating rooms etc... but now that more ecological, healthy materials are available, what do you think of them?
For example :
- Recycled newspaper panels with density of 32-42 kg/m3 available here in Finland (Ekovilla)
- Recycled cotton with density as low as 20 kg/m3
- Hemp
- Wood
- Sheep
What do you guys think when it comes to treating room and especially bass trapping
In Finland Ekovilla slabs (32-42 kg/m3) hasn't been measured but their blown wool of similar density has AFR of about 10 kPa*s/m2.
Manu
So we all have used Rockwool or glass fibre for treating rooms etc... but now that more ecological, healthy materials are available, what do you think of them?
For example :
- Recycled newspaper panels with density of 32-42 kg/m3 available here in Finland (Ekovilla)
- Recycled cotton with density as low as 20 kg/m3
- Hemp
- Wood
- Sheep
What do you guys think when it comes to treating room and especially bass trapping
In Finland Ekovilla slabs (32-42 kg/m3) hasn't been measured but their blown wool of similar density has AFR of about 10 kPa*s/m2.
Manu
Hi,
For rockwool alternative recycled cotton is the best i've met until now.
In US it is called 'ultratouch' iirc. In France you have 'isolant metisse'
Metisse(R), l'isolant durable > le 1er isolant textile labelise biosource ! | Metisse
It is even good for society as people recycling for metisse are people in difficult social situation ( through an association called 'le relais').
Wood sound good yes but in no way it is a solution regarding acoustic treatments except for diffusors or reflectors ime.
It is often used in studio to give a sound to instruments, not so much in the control rooms i've seen where target are differents ( it can give a luxury touch though). Glass isn't an issue if used correctly ( it can act as bass trap and make very good reflector to redirect Early Reflections outside listening spot).
Stone can be very nice diffusor too ( backwall, facing the loudspeakers, in studios stones rooms makes for great drum's room).
Wallpaper... hmm if you try to do something past 10khz maybe...
For bass traps i must confess a paradigm shift occured to me in the past month: thanks to fir you can do things which make basstrap non mandatory now, or go multisub approach ( but i fear in a pro context you may face mistrust as it is not widely spread afaik). Of course FIR comes to a price (which is delay in treatments) so can't be the definitive answer in all case but if realtime is not mandatory then i would not bother with helmotz resonators.
Anyway ime if basstraps are needed i prefered results with VPR over Helmotz.
Then the materials will be differents and not very ecological ( at least for the foam and glue, metal plate being ecological).
One last thing about rockwool and it's imprint: the whole life cycle have to be examinated to define the imprint imho. I used to work in Hidley's rooms up to 2010 built circa mid 70's where rockwool was never been changed. With 35 y of life span the imprint is lesser than in typical architecture use.
In that case some 'bio' sourced material loose their advantage quickly: hemp for example is not 'green' at all once you include fuel used for tractors, energy used for transformation or pesticides and fertilizers used for growth...
It not simple problem to approach.
Where did you built the french studio Manulaudic?
For rockwool alternative recycled cotton is the best i've met until now.
In US it is called 'ultratouch' iirc. In France you have 'isolant metisse'
Metisse(R), l'isolant durable > le 1er isolant textile labelise biosource ! | Metisse
It is even good for society as people recycling for metisse are people in difficult social situation ( through an association called 'le relais').
Wood sound good yes but in no way it is a solution regarding acoustic treatments except for diffusors or reflectors ime.
It is often used in studio to give a sound to instruments, not so much in the control rooms i've seen where target are differents ( it can give a luxury touch though). Glass isn't an issue if used correctly ( it can act as bass trap and make very good reflector to redirect Early Reflections outside listening spot).
Stone can be very nice diffusor too ( backwall, facing the loudspeakers, in studios stones rooms makes for great drum's room).
Wallpaper... hmm if you try to do something past 10khz maybe...
For bass traps i must confess a paradigm shift occured to me in the past month: thanks to fir you can do things which make basstrap non mandatory now, or go multisub approach ( but i fear in a pro context you may face mistrust as it is not widely spread afaik). Of course FIR comes to a price (which is delay in treatments) so can't be the definitive answer in all case but if realtime is not mandatory then i would not bother with helmotz resonators.
Anyway ime if basstraps are needed i prefered results with VPR over Helmotz.
Then the materials will be differents and not very ecological ( at least for the foam and glue, metal plate being ecological).
One last thing about rockwool and it's imprint: the whole life cycle have to be examinated to define the imprint imho. I used to work in Hidley's rooms up to 2010 built circa mid 70's where rockwool was never been changed. With 35 y of life span the imprint is lesser than in typical architecture use.
In that case some 'bio' sourced material loose their advantage quickly: hemp for example is not 'green' at all once you include fuel used for tractors, energy used for transformation or pesticides and fertilizers used for growth...
It not simple problem to approach.
Where did you built the french studio Manulaudic?
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I was just looking at this:
Het Stille Verzet | Silent Reed - architectenweb.nl
No idea yet about the cost.
Jan
Het Stille Verzet | Silent Reed - architectenweb.nl
No idea yet about the cost.
Jan
I am planning to apply some acoustic treatment in my home, but I don't want it to become a fire hazard. I like glass fiber because it can not burn (and is cheap).
Dried untreated reed, recycled newspapers or cotton etc. all seems like one big fire hazard to me. (Same for the cheap foam products I have seen.) Many things can be impregnated to fire proof them of course but then the price goes up.
Dried untreated reed, recycled newspapers or cotton etc. all seems like one big fire hazard to me. (Same for the cheap foam products I have seen.) Many things can be impregnated to fire proof them of course but then the price goes up.
Once I installed an audio system in a room with flocked wall paper. It seemed to absorb the top octave very well.
Thanks for your detailed message, i have indeed ordered some metisse to try and i really like the texture of it, some of it is really fluffy 20kg/m3.
I live in Finland where i have used the Ekovilla material but in France i have built the studio in Gers, close to Eauze.
Regarding the whole discussion on natural, it's not about being ecological, i mean rockwool is natural but it's more about the healthy aspect when introduced in a home. I feel more comfortable with recycled cotton than fiber glass, working with it, the dust it creates etc...
So i just wanted to get a feel of what have people experience with these. FIR is interesting but a very different approach.
Regarding other comments, wool carpets and wall curtains are indeed very nice to work with, trapping bass is really where i was researching different materials.
I live in Finland where i have used the Ekovilla material but in France i have built the studio in Gers, close to Eauze.
Regarding the whole discussion on natural, it's not about being ecological, i mean rockwool is natural but it's more about the healthy aspect when introduced in a home. I feel more comfortable with recycled cotton than fiber glass, working with it, the dust it creates etc...
So i just wanted to get a feel of what have people experience with these. FIR is interesting but a very different approach.
Regarding other comments, wool carpets and wall curtains are indeed very nice to work with, trapping bass is really where i was researching different materials.
Hi,
Ok i get your point about glasswool. I don't like manipulating it and if i can substitute i happily do.
Rockwool is much less an issue to me, it doesn't hitch when manipulated and the fibers are way more coarse than glassfiber so there is less danger overall for your lungs ( as they can't enter them).
One thing to remember about the aging of both material is that what make them disintegrate in their typical intended application is humidity and frozing cycle which broke the fibers and release them into their environnement.
In the case of acoustic treatment, then indoor, there is much less chance for it to happen.
Hence my remark about Hidley's room: rockwool may last forever in this kind of application without releasing anything nasty into the air.
It is not the case with many foam... which can potentially release unhealthy gaz as they age... so VPR are maybe not a good longterm answer too for your case.
If we exclude glasswool and gaz releasing materials then i consider most concern about health to be largely overrated: peoples usually fear from the health recommendation wrote on their package but they don't get it is for people manipulating them all day long for installation. Once in place it is usually safe.
Jan my dutch is a bit rusted... what kind of material is it?
Ok i get your point about glasswool. I don't like manipulating it and if i can substitute i happily do.
Rockwool is much less an issue to me, it doesn't hitch when manipulated and the fibers are way more coarse than glassfiber so there is less danger overall for your lungs ( as they can't enter them).
One thing to remember about the aging of both material is that what make them disintegrate in their typical intended application is humidity and frozing cycle which broke the fibers and release them into their environnement.
In the case of acoustic treatment, then indoor, there is much less chance for it to happen.
Hence my remark about Hidley's room: rockwool may last forever in this kind of application without releasing anything nasty into the air.
It is not the case with many foam... which can potentially release unhealthy gaz as they age... so VPR are maybe not a good longterm answer too for your case.
If we exclude glasswool and gaz releasing materials then i consider most concern about health to be largely overrated: peoples usually fear from the health recommendation wrote on their package but they don't get it is for people manipulating them all day long for installation. Once in place it is usually safe.
Jan my dutch is a bit rusted... what kind of material is it?
Absolutely, you are right it's overkill to worry about these but i don't know i felt like somehow it's nice to either use recycled paper or jean...
But ok i didn't know about the brake cycle freezing and all, that's very interesting.
You said you've used metisse? Have you had good results?
My room is fairly large and i just need to reduce decay in all frequencies, including the low ones, so planning to fill corners with quite a lot of it and have "molton" curtains or Thinner pannels across the room
Manu
But ok i didn't know about the brake cycle freezing and all, that's very interesting.
You said you've used metisse? Have you had good results?
My room is fairly large and i just need to reduce decay in all frequencies, including the low ones, so planning to fill corners with quite a lot of it and have "molton" curtains or Thinner pannels across the room
Manu
Hi, yes i used Metisse in place of Rockfon panels ( mostly for absorption from 1khz and up).
I didn't use it for basstrap application though but as i've stated i tend to dislike typical Helmotz resonators as i found them tricky to implement ( find the place where they are the most efficient in the room, fine tune port diameter and depth) and i tend to think they are to narrow band which is not ideal in my view.
Well anyway as wideband absorbers in mid/high i was pleased with the outcome of Metisse.
I've seen others using it for low mid and bass ( panel+air plenum) and i thought results were ok.
From what you describe you plan to make some 'super chunk' approach, which may work or not.
I've had mixed experience with them: in some small room it was ok but it doesn't goes deeper than 80hz, in bigger room it was placebo imho...
I can't tell more as it may have been an implementation or realisation issue for the larger room ( i wasn't involved in it).
I know it usually is not possible to implement at home ( you won't be happy to sacrifice half surface of your room) and there is little or no study about them but 'hangers' ( Hidley's way) are fairly efficient for treating low, and i'm sure a Metisse based one could be effective.
I didn't use it for basstrap application though but as i've stated i tend to dislike typical Helmotz resonators as i found them tricky to implement ( find the place where they are the most efficient in the room, fine tune port diameter and depth) and i tend to think they are to narrow band which is not ideal in my view.
Well anyway as wideband absorbers in mid/high i was pleased with the outcome of Metisse.
I've seen others using it for low mid and bass ( panel+air plenum) and i thought results were ok.
From what you describe you plan to make some 'super chunk' approach, which may work or not.
I've had mixed experience with them: in some small room it was ok but it doesn't goes deeper than 80hz, in bigger room it was placebo imho...
I can't tell more as it may have been an implementation or realisation issue for the larger room ( i wasn't involved in it).
I know it usually is not possible to implement at home ( you won't be happy to sacrifice half surface of your room) and there is little or no study about them but 'hangers' ( Hidley's way) are fairly efficient for treating low, and i'm sure a Metisse based one could be effective.
Yes i speak french. 
You are welcome to pm.
For domestic case, i favour sealed and Linkwitz transform to adapt loudspeakers/room couple and i advice for either multisub approach or FIR ( i haven't combined both but i'm sure there is things to be gained from this if you can withstand both drawbacks of each approach - bulk for multisub, delay for FIR).
The issue i regularly face is i come from proworld and the 'traditional' approach to room treatments doesn't fit well what amateurs are ok to withstand in a living space ( as i do too...
).
You are welcome to pm.
For domestic case, i favour sealed and Linkwitz transform to adapt loudspeakers/room couple and i advice for either multisub approach or FIR ( i haven't combined both but i'm sure there is things to be gained from this if you can withstand both drawbacks of each approach - bulk for multisub, delay for FIR).
The issue i regularly face is i come from proworld and the 'traditional' approach to room treatments doesn't fit well what amateurs are ok to withstand in a living space ( as i do too...
).
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The Matisse website does claim that they use a fire retardant process (in French): http://www.isolantmetisse.com/rubriques/confort-et-securite
