I am now at the point where I want to try some equalization, timing, etc. My system is 2.1 with 3 subwoofers. My DAC/preamp is a MiniDSP SHD, so I can do all of the DSP filtering these tools offer. It also includes DIRAC. What is the best sequence to apply these tools: e.g. B, A, D, C, etc.?
A. Front Speaker placement, with help from "Rational Speaker Placement" (Sumiko Method)
B. Multi-Sub Optimizer (MSO)
C. DIRAC
D. Sub placement - crawl method or ??
E. REW - frequency response filtering
F. REW - timing and phase adjustments
G. Room treatment
Thanks
A. Front Speaker placement, with help from "Rational Speaker Placement" (Sumiko Method)
B. Multi-Sub Optimizer (MSO)
C. DIRAC
D. Sub placement - crawl method or ??
E. REW - frequency response filtering
F. REW - timing and phase adjustments
G. Room treatment
Thanks
Hi,
Well i'm not sure if loudspeaker correction using dsp really belong to acoustic? In my view i would start acoustic treatments once loudspeakers are 'finished'. Of course some parameters have to be adjusted 'in place' ( bsc) but loudspeakers should be only adapted not developed during acoustic treatment phase.
So i would say: front speaker placement/ sweetspot,
sub placement,
acoustic treatment,
'room correction'.
The simulation tools could be of help at any stage ( given their limitations being...simulations. They help understand what to expect from varying parameters though even if reality is often different (a soft cannot analyze your room so start hypothesis for calculs may be ( way ) off), measurements give you a more trustable view of what happen and is needed (as treatments).
Drc is icing on the cake and could help refine things ( or not).
Well i'm not sure if loudspeaker correction using dsp really belong to acoustic? In my view i would start acoustic treatments once loudspeakers are 'finished'. Of course some parameters have to be adjusted 'in place' ( bsc) but loudspeakers should be only adapted not developed during acoustic treatment phase.
So i would say: front speaker placement/ sweetspot,
sub placement,
acoustic treatment,
'room correction'.
The simulation tools could be of help at any stage ( given their limitations being...simulations. They help understand what to expect from varying parameters though even if reality is often different (a soft cannot analyze your room so start hypothesis for calculs may be ( way ) off), measurements give you a more trustable view of what happen and is needed (as treatments).
Drc is icing on the cake and could help refine things ( or not).
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Thanks, Krivium,
Is this post in the wrong section? Where should I have put it?
When you say “acoustic treatment” are you talking about absorbers, diffusers, and bass traps?
If so, not gonna happen in this lifetime, unfortunately. I’m just a guest in my house.
What does Dirac do that’s different than what you can do with REW?
Is this post in the wrong section? Where should I have put it?
When you say “acoustic treatment” are you talking about absorbers, diffusers, and bass traps?
If so, not gonna happen in this lifetime, unfortunately. I’m just a guest in my house.
What does Dirac do that’s different than what you can do with REW?
Hello,
Yes i talk about acoustic treatments: tools to adress acoustic issues at their level ( absorbers, diffusers,...).
I can't tell what Dirac perform as this is a proprietary system ( not open source so you don't really know what the automated routine is).
REW is an analyse software so it doesn't do anything by itself ( except it present you the informations the mic capture in different format, which help identify the issues you face). But it'll compile and make measurements done using it compatible for other soft or hardware ( Rephase or hardware dsp) where you could adress the issues identified.
I must confess i'am not a great supporter of DRC as the main treatment for acoustic. Even less when it is automated ( nothing can beat a human taking ( educated) decision in my view).
I'm sure after a 'conventional' acoustic treatment it could bring something on top but it require skills in analysis and how to adress the eventual issues and know when to stop ( which isn't encountered often).
I don't think this is the wrong place to ask about it, just i'm not the person to give you an answer as i'am biased.
Anyway what i stated still stand: first make your loudspeakers blameless then the acoustic part.
I've read about the Sumiko method.
I don't know what to think about it as it seems to be a 'grandma recipe' to me: i'am used to have symetrical layout, equilateral triangle and RFZ*, microphone measurement and analysis.
Audiophile track as a reference and things about 'loading' the room equally or forget about Early Reflections treatments and unsymetrical layout just doesn't do it for my own preference and approach to the task.
If it works for you that is fine and not costly to implement: at worst you'll loose an afternoon but even if it isn't effective in the end you always learn things along the road when playing with loudspeaker location and room interaction.
I hope someone more into DRC could gives you more interesting answers.
*: How to Build a "Reflection-Free Zone" to Treat Early Reflections
Yes i talk about acoustic treatments: tools to adress acoustic issues at their level ( absorbers, diffusers,...).
I can't tell what Dirac perform as this is a proprietary system ( not open source so you don't really know what the automated routine is).
REW is an analyse software so it doesn't do anything by itself ( except it present you the informations the mic capture in different format, which help identify the issues you face). But it'll compile and make measurements done using it compatible for other soft or hardware ( Rephase or hardware dsp) where you could adress the issues identified.
I must confess i'am not a great supporter of DRC as the main treatment for acoustic. Even less when it is automated ( nothing can beat a human taking ( educated) decision in my view).
I'm sure after a 'conventional' acoustic treatment it could bring something on top but it require skills in analysis and how to adress the eventual issues and know when to stop ( which isn't encountered often).
I don't think this is the wrong place to ask about it, just i'm not the person to give you an answer as i'am biased.
Anyway what i stated still stand: first make your loudspeakers blameless then the acoustic part.
I've read about the Sumiko method.
I don't know what to think about it as it seems to be a 'grandma recipe' to me: i'am used to have symetrical layout, equilateral triangle and RFZ*, microphone measurement and analysis.
Audiophile track as a reference and things about 'loading' the room equally or forget about Early Reflections treatments and unsymetrical layout just doesn't do it for my own preference and approach to the task.
If it works for you that is fine and not costly to implement: at worst you'll loose an afternoon but even if it isn't effective in the end you always learn things along the road when playing with loudspeaker location and room interaction.
I hope someone more into DRC could gives you more interesting answers.
*: How to Build a "Reflection-Free Zone" to Treat Early Reflections
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Alanhuth,
You need to start with "A". Why? Because you want your room set up in a certain way to your liking. Then, go to "G". Why? Because the room needs to be treated to accommodate your desired layout. And, yes, that means absorption and diffusion.
"Room corrrection" is a misnomer. It's "room compensation". You're not "correcting" the room. I'm sometimes amazed at how long some fallacies persist in the hi-fi world. This one has been going on for decades. What is really happening is that the sound system output is being altered. One might call it "sound system correction", except that it's not corrrecting the sound system, either. It's changing the system output to compensate for the room's deficiencies. To correct the room's deficiencies, you have to make changes to the room. Sorry, but that's the way it is.
This is not to say that room compensation can't help, but it's important to know what's actually being done.
You need to start with "A". Why? Because you want your room set up in a certain way to your liking. Then, go to "G". Why? Because the room needs to be treated to accommodate your desired layout. And, yes, that means absorption and diffusion.
"Room corrrection" is a misnomer. It's "room compensation". You're not "correcting" the room. I'm sometimes amazed at how long some fallacies persist in the hi-fi world. This one has been going on for decades. What is really happening is that the sound system output is being altered. One might call it "sound system correction", except that it's not corrrecting the sound system, either. It's changing the system output to compensate for the room's deficiencies. To correct the room's deficiencies, you have to make changes to the room. Sorry, but that's the way it is.
This is not to say that room compensation can't help, but it's important to know what's actually being done.
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Thanks, Dave. Nice to get an update to this after so long. Unfortunately, my options for A and G are very limited. I did run the Rational Speaker Placement regime, per Bob Robbins, using a loop of Ballad of the Runaway Horse, which seems to be de rigueur these days. That process, given that I had about a foot of leeway in one dimension only, gave remarkable results. I now have a center image, not pinpoint, but recognizable, and the speakers disappear on some songs, but not others. Room treatment is not a possibility. I am not master of my domain, unfortunately.
So, given my sub-optimal situation, do you have any thoughts on multi-sub-optimizer (MSO), REW, Dirac, etc. I have them all. So far, I have “balanced” the subs for volume and I did a REW session trying to flatten out the room response between the mains and the subwoofers treated as a single sub. I got it flat-ish but the “corrections” brought volume down about 12db, so that didn’t work too well. After that exercise, I read that sometimes if you flip the polarity on a sub behind you, that can be a big help. I did not try that.
Do you have any suggestions for a process to take this mess to the next level?
Thanks,
So, given my sub-optimal situation, do you have any thoughts on multi-sub-optimizer (MSO), REW, Dirac, etc. I have them all. So far, I have “balanced” the subs for volume and I did a REW session trying to flatten out the room response between the mains and the subwoofers treated as a single sub. I got it flat-ish but the “corrections” brought volume down about 12db, so that didn’t work too well. After that exercise, I read that sometimes if you flip the polarity on a sub behind you, that can be a big help. I did not try that.
Do you have any suggestions for a process to take this mess to the next level?
Thanks,
Thanks, Dave, for the best advice you have.
I’m not sure I understand why you draw a distinction between “compromises” and “solutions”. Obviously, given my room situation, I cannot ever achieve solutions. Compromises are exactly what I’m seeking. i want to achieve the best sound I can given the limitations I have to work around. Isn’t that the same problem most audio enthusiasts have? Your position sounds to me like, “If you can’t do it right, don’t do it at all”. Is that fair?
I’m not sure I understand why you draw a distinction between “compromises” and “solutions”. Obviously, given my room situation, I cannot ever achieve solutions. Compromises are exactly what I’m seeking. i want to achieve the best sound I can given the limitations I have to work around. Isn’t that the same problem most audio enthusiasts have? Your position sounds to me like, “If you can’t do it right, don’t do it at all”. Is that fair?
Hi Alanhuth,
I wonder if you could not find some answer reading this:
https://www.amazon.com/Accurate-Sou...&keywords=Mitch+barnett&qid=1625918831&sr=8-1
Mitchba is a member here and knowledgable about the subject ( and anything sound related in general) and he give a clear explanation of what his achievable through dsp ( and how through Acourate with step by step descriptions).
The ebook is Acourate oriented but the approach is translatable to other software ( open-DRC, Brute FIR ,Rephase ,REW ,...all are freeware) and there is good information on measurement techniques, interpretation of measurements and all .
Worth a read and 10 dollars anyway.
To be honest the read decided me to give it a try (again,... last time was 10 years ago but i wasn't convinced by end results at that time. I have higher expectation of success about good results this time).
I wonder if you could not find some answer reading this:
https://www.amazon.com/Accurate-Sou...&keywords=Mitch+barnett&qid=1625918831&sr=8-1
Mitchba is a member here and knowledgable about the subject ( and anything sound related in general) and he give a clear explanation of what his achievable through dsp ( and how through Acourate with step by step descriptions).
The ebook is Acourate oriented but the approach is translatable to other software ( open-DRC, Brute FIR ,Rephase ,REW ,...all are freeware) and there is good information on measurement techniques, interpretation of measurements and all .
Worth a read and 10 dollars anyway.
To be honest the read decided me to give it a try (again,... last time was 10 years ago but i wasn't convinced by end results at that time. I have higher expectation of success about good results this time).
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Hi Alanhuth,
No luck involved.
It's all about having clearly defined target/goal, following the approach given AND the quality of measurements performed and the ability to extract from them the informations you need.
The measurements and techniques associated are the keypoints ime.
That said you'll still need a way to adress early reflections by physical objects ( absorbing panels) for optimum results. And i still believe you mainly correct the loudspeakers ( behavior) rather than the room hence DRC still seems inapropriate name to me.
Anyway the ebook is well worth the investissement as it is step by step and theorical points are well explained and easily understandable, even if i needed to read multiple times.
No luck involved.
It's all about having clearly defined target/goal, following the approach given AND the quality of measurements performed and the ability to extract from them the informations you need.
The measurements and techniques associated are the keypoints ime.
That said you'll still need a way to adress early reflections by physical objects ( absorbing panels) for optimum results. And i still believe you mainly correct the loudspeakers ( behavior) rather than the room hence DRC still seems inapropriate name to me.
Anyway the ebook is well worth the investissement as it is step by step and theorical points are well explained and easily understandable, even if i needed to read multiple times.
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