Hello,
When i bought my property some decades ago i brought my Altecs VOT and put them close to the corners of the room. Pointing the TAD2001 horns on top slightly to the center of the room to reduce reflections from the arcade like wall. When i moved in i tried breaking it down but i soon came across some reinforcing rods so probably it was more than a nice element with sliding doors to create a bit of separation. Neighbouring houses did change the shape of the arcade but in all 7 identical houses non of them is removed.
Removing the biggest part of the arcade would require an architect to do some calculations.
Because i changed the wallpaper in the major part of the room into cork tiles i asked myself why not change the position of the VOT. After all no matter where you put them nearly every new visitors first question is about my speakers especially non-audiophiles.
So in this position both VOT have a so called wing on the outside. Because the electronics connected to them need some work they are not playing yet. Pano, one of the experts here, told me to expect a deeper soundstage. Front of the speaker distance to the back '' wall '' is about 3 meters. There will be less reflected sound.
The distance in between the cork cabinets is about 1 meter so 3 feet. The TAD can be angled a little more in a straight line to widen the soundstage i presume.
At first my idea was to add wings on the inner side of the VOT too. Didnt want to drill holes in the cabinets so i thought about mounting two panels between the wooden bar in the arcade and the floor like a pair of saloon doors. I still have a few square meters of cork tiles like the ones on the wall.
BUT this kind of construction would maybe create to much of a room divided into two parts. Behind the speakers are my records and books so i will have to be there sometimes. This is also the sunny side of my house so i wanna enjoy the free light and warmth.
Because i just ordered about 65 meters of 30 mm diameter bamboo to create a kind of privacy curtain, artwork and diffusor in front of a balcony door the thought about using bamboo between the two VOTS popped up.
In front of the door i will hang two strings composed of one foot long bamboo shoots in a zigzag pattern. Because of the round structure and the zigzag i expect a kind of diffusion anyway better than a door mainly composed of glass.
NOW between the cabinets there are several thoughts, issues, questions.
I dont need to create privacy here so i can let the individual strings touch each other.
I could create a more open structure in the area situated above the cork cabinet by using not 30 but 15 mm diameter.
Wont the creation of a bamboo curtain in between the cabinets affect the depth of image? Then 30 mm in between the cork and 15 mm from where the TAD starts would be nice.
30 mm bamboo would create a nice '' up and down '' shape. Could even use bigger diameters but visually to big diameter will not look nice because the area between the cabinets is not big.
Would a closed curtain with all the bamboo strings touching each other be an advantage to make it function as a wing?
Maybe the wing should have a more solid structure like a wooden panel would have. Bamboo has nice acoustical properties they say but it is very light. Being hollow i could fill the parts with sand.
Any idea is welcome.
Greetings, Eduard
When i bought my property some decades ago i brought my Altecs VOT and put them close to the corners of the room. Pointing the TAD2001 horns on top slightly to the center of the room to reduce reflections from the arcade like wall. When i moved in i tried breaking it down but i soon came across some reinforcing rods so probably it was more than a nice element with sliding doors to create a bit of separation. Neighbouring houses did change the shape of the arcade but in all 7 identical houses non of them is removed.
Removing the biggest part of the arcade would require an architect to do some calculations.
Because i changed the wallpaper in the major part of the room into cork tiles i asked myself why not change the position of the VOT. After all no matter where you put them nearly every new visitors first question is about my speakers especially non-audiophiles.
So in this position both VOT have a so called wing on the outside. Because the electronics connected to them need some work they are not playing yet. Pano, one of the experts here, told me to expect a deeper soundstage. Front of the speaker distance to the back '' wall '' is about 3 meters. There will be less reflected sound.
The distance in between the cork cabinets is about 1 meter so 3 feet. The TAD can be angled a little more in a straight line to widen the soundstage i presume.
At first my idea was to add wings on the inner side of the VOT too. Didnt want to drill holes in the cabinets so i thought about mounting two panels between the wooden bar in the arcade and the floor like a pair of saloon doors. I still have a few square meters of cork tiles like the ones on the wall.
BUT this kind of construction would maybe create to much of a room divided into two parts. Behind the speakers are my records and books so i will have to be there sometimes. This is also the sunny side of my house so i wanna enjoy the free light and warmth.
Because i just ordered about 65 meters of 30 mm diameter bamboo to create a kind of privacy curtain, artwork and diffusor in front of a balcony door the thought about using bamboo between the two VOTS popped up.
In front of the door i will hang two strings composed of one foot long bamboo shoots in a zigzag pattern. Because of the round structure and the zigzag i expect a kind of diffusion anyway better than a door mainly composed of glass.
NOW between the cabinets there are several thoughts, issues, questions.
I dont need to create privacy here so i can let the individual strings touch each other.
I could create a more open structure in the area situated above the cork cabinet by using not 30 but 15 mm diameter.
Wont the creation of a bamboo curtain in between the cabinets affect the depth of image? Then 30 mm in between the cork and 15 mm from where the TAD starts would be nice.
30 mm bamboo would create a nice '' up and down '' shape. Could even use bigger diameters but visually to big diameter will not look nice because the area between the cabinets is not big.
Would a closed curtain with all the bamboo strings touching each other be an advantage to make it function as a wing?
Maybe the wing should have a more solid structure like a wooden panel would have. Bamboo has nice acoustical properties they say but it is very light. Being hollow i could fill the parts with sand.
Any idea is welcome.
Greetings, Eduard
Forgot the photos
Hello,
Here are the photos.
Greetings, Eduard
P.s as you can see i also installed a combination of diffusors and absorbers in the listening area of my room.
For my 2.1 movie set they gave a very welcome improvement
Hello,
Here are the photos.
Greetings, Eduard
P.s as you can see i also installed a combination of diffusors and absorbers in the listening area of my room.
For my 2.1 movie set they gave a very welcome improvement
Attachments
Hello,
Here not to many readers i think but after the improvement i hear in my rather basic 2.1 movie system i am convinced that once you have a decent set up spending some cash and/or time in acoustics gives real good return on investment.
So hoping to get some guidance here lol.
Greetings, Eduard
Here not to many readers i think but after the improvement i hear in my rather basic 2.1 movie system i am convinced that once you have a decent set up spending some cash and/or time in acoustics gives real good return on investment.
So hoping to get some guidance here lol.
Greetings, Eduard
I can't say that I have much expertise, but perhaps it will help move the conversation forward...
I'll need to re-read the OP again at a later date, or perhaps you can clarify. I am not sure what the goal is (or goals are).
Are you trying to:
- 'block off' the room behind the cabinets?
- make a fake (movable) wall in the space between the cabinets?
- put something in front of the horns (LF, HF, both?)
And what is the goal?
Usually 'wing' additions on the VOTT help out with the lower registers, but in my opinion this would ideally require a tight seal with the cabinets. (not readily movable thus).
At the same time, diffusion is mentioned. What are we trying to diffuse? the HF?
So I guess the question to begin with - what frequency range are you trying to affect?
I'll need to re-read the OP again at a later date, or perhaps you can clarify. I am not sure what the goal is (or goals are).
Are you trying to:
- 'block off' the room behind the cabinets?
- make a fake (movable) wall in the space between the cabinets?
- put something in front of the horns (LF, HF, both?)
And what is the goal?
Usually 'wing' additions on the VOTT help out with the lower registers, but in my opinion this would ideally require a tight seal with the cabinets. (not readily movable thus).
At the same time, diffusion is mentioned. What are we trying to diffuse? the HF?
So I guess the question to begin with - what frequency range are you trying to affect?
Agreed, please edit/move his latest post to here and leave a room positioning reference to this thread as I've had folks email me with similar/same Qs for a wide range of speaker brands/types.
TIA,
GM
Hello,
The reason Altec introduced these so called wings was to improve the lower frequency range. As you can see in the photos on the outside both cabinets have a kind of wing because of the brick arcade.
I have to be able to pass between the loudspeakers to that other part of the room because that is where my records, dvd, blu rays and books are. After finishing covering the walls with cork tiles i thought maybe make some saloon like doors covered with cork. Maybe for a typical wing there are not many things to be considered because it will just be to create a bigger horn. But i could imagine that covering the wings with glued on bamboo tubes could act like a kind of diffusor . OR is this not what you need the wings to do?
If i created space behind my speakers to create a more spacious shouldnt i be worried by closing to much of the arcade? That is why my idea to have the height of the wings limited to about 47 inches.
Greetings, eduard
The honorable member Pano, told me creating more space behind the speakers will create more depth of image which is nice.
The reason Altec introduced these so called wings was to improve the lower frequency range. As you can see in the photos on the outside both cabinets have a kind of wing because of the brick arcade.
I have to be able to pass between the loudspeakers to that other part of the room because that is where my records, dvd, blu rays and books are. After finishing covering the walls with cork tiles i thought maybe make some saloon like doors covered with cork. Maybe for a typical wing there are not many things to be considered because it will just be to create a bigger horn. But i could imagine that covering the wings with glued on bamboo tubes could act like a kind of diffusor . OR is this not what you need the wings to do?
If i created space behind my speakers to create a more spacious shouldnt i be worried by closing to much of the arcade? That is why my idea to have the height of the wings limited to about 47 inches.
Greetings, eduard
The honorable member Pano, told me creating more space behind the speakers will create more depth of image which is nice.
My impression of any structure designed to increase the effective baffle size (this is why we have wings, right? ) ...is that good practice is to ensure a good air seal. i.e. you don't want air gaps, lest performance will suffer.
* If wings are mounted on hinges in order to become doors, then you are adding a dimension of resonance which would be avoided with a rigid connection.
I think that at the frequencies for which the wings will have an effect, a (firmly attached) 'facing' material's surface profile / texture has little to do with the end result (the sound).
Adding sand to the bamboo cavities will be "mass-damping". Presumably that would lower the resonance (/ resonant frequency) of the doors themselves. (heavy enough, and this pushes the resonances down to where they are inaudible - but they might need to be made of concrete for that ?)
I think the 'big picture' here is that what you'd probably be doing with wing-doors is to affect the tuning of the back room cavity, rather than to achieve what effective wings offer to a baffle.
That said, there are those with real-world room tuning experiences and abilities here that know far better than I.
* If wings are mounted on hinges in order to become doors, then you are adding a dimension of resonance which would be avoided with a rigid connection.
I think that at the frequencies for which the wings will have an effect, a (firmly attached) 'facing' material's surface profile / texture has little to do with the end result (the sound).
Adding sand to the bamboo cavities will be "mass-damping". Presumably that would lower the resonance (/ resonant frequency) of the doors themselves. (heavy enough, and this pushes the resonances down to where they are inaudible - but they might need to be made of concrete for that ?)
I think the 'big picture' here is that what you'd probably be doing with wing-doors is to affect the tuning of the back room cavity, rather than to achieve what effective wings offer to a baffle.
That said, there are those with real-world room tuning experiences and abilities here that know far better than I.
Hello,
These are indeed A7 build according to French publications in the eighties.
Top and bottom panel are 40 mm plywood.
The curved parts were made by glueing several thin birch wood panel together in an especially made mold with two stainless steel pieces ( CNC manufactured)as a guide.
Most of the inside panels are covered with lead sheets. The two side panels and the back panels ( divided in upper and lower part to divide the weight) are filled with 0,75 inch of dry sand.
If i remember right the back panels use thicker wood and one inch of sand. When using a to large amount of sand the wooden panel will start '' bulging '' . I copied some ideas from the French who made an Onken cabinet with double woofers sand filled. They used some '' tool '' to get as much grains of sand in between two panels BUT if you have Popeye arms the wood will get curved. So i just added a limited amount of sand and hit on the panels with a big rubber hammer.
And as an extra i covered the cabinets with cork tiles. I think total weight around 100 kilograms ( 220 lbs)
The speakers are still standing on the rubber wheels that installed when building them. I asked a coworker to machine some stainless steel spikes back in the time when these were considered nice.
Because my concrete floor is covered with cork tiles i will need something to protect it when installing them with the point down. Probably with the point up i need to protect the plywood too. The point will enter the wood but i dont know how deep , I think after a few minutes it will stop going deeper but it is a big load. So far i found 6 dont know if i have two more.
Considering the more than usual weight of my speakers and the fact that they have some additional vibration reducing i wonder how to use them pointing up or downwards?
There are these inflatable cushions to lift up heavy things so with these to help i will be able to locate them exactly. With wheels it is impossible to make them touch the arcade. I will look for a kind of material that will allow a non sticky but airtight '' connection ''
There have been introduced some vibration killing materials that could also work. Mouser even sells these maybe i could try them too
The wings on the outside formed by the walls are a already a big surface but adding '' surface '' in between could give some more improvement.
I ABSOLUTELY dont wanna attach something to the cork covered sides of the cabinets. The wings used by the French dont look that sturdy ( Pano saw these more than i did).
If i wanna limit the surface to the height of the cork cabinets i could go for one panel serving for two speakers.
I found some bigger diameter both material thickness and outside diameter. Sturdy enough to be filled with dry sand to create a heavy surface. Then i will use some heavy hinges. Should work in '' both directions '' if most of the days you will use it 50 times or more!
Could also make a '' curtain like '' structure using smaller diameter bamboo pieces above 3 feet height and bigger ones below to create a more open structure on the upper side. That will give a nice visual effect but probably a restricted benefit in the lower frequency range. BUT i also do care about the looks. Already moved the VOT into a prominent area in my living room.
As usual any ideas are welcome.
Kind greetings, Eduard
These are indeed A7 build according to French publications in the eighties.
Top and bottom panel are 40 mm plywood.
The curved parts were made by glueing several thin birch wood panel together in an especially made mold with two stainless steel pieces ( CNC manufactured)as a guide.
Most of the inside panels are covered with lead sheets. The two side panels and the back panels ( divided in upper and lower part to divide the weight) are filled with 0,75 inch of dry sand.
If i remember right the back panels use thicker wood and one inch of sand. When using a to large amount of sand the wooden panel will start '' bulging '' . I copied some ideas from the French who made an Onken cabinet with double woofers sand filled. They used some '' tool '' to get as much grains of sand in between two panels BUT if you have Popeye arms the wood will get curved. So i just added a limited amount of sand and hit on the panels with a big rubber hammer.
And as an extra i covered the cabinets with cork tiles. I think total weight around 100 kilograms ( 220 lbs)
The speakers are still standing on the rubber wheels that installed when building them. I asked a coworker to machine some stainless steel spikes back in the time when these were considered nice.
Because my concrete floor is covered with cork tiles i will need something to protect it when installing them with the point down. Probably with the point up i need to protect the plywood too. The point will enter the wood but i dont know how deep , I think after a few minutes it will stop going deeper but it is a big load. So far i found 6 dont know if i have two more.
Considering the more than usual weight of my speakers and the fact that they have some additional vibration reducing i wonder how to use them pointing up or downwards?
There are these inflatable cushions to lift up heavy things so with these to help i will be able to locate them exactly. With wheels it is impossible to make them touch the arcade. I will look for a kind of material that will allow a non sticky but airtight '' connection ''
There have been introduced some vibration killing materials that could also work. Mouser even sells these maybe i could try them too
The wings on the outside formed by the walls are a already a big surface but adding '' surface '' in between could give some more improvement.
I ABSOLUTELY dont wanna attach something to the cork covered sides of the cabinets. The wings used by the French dont look that sturdy ( Pano saw these more than i did).
If i wanna limit the surface to the height of the cork cabinets i could go for one panel serving for two speakers.
I found some bigger diameter both material thickness and outside diameter. Sturdy enough to be filled with dry sand to create a heavy surface. Then i will use some heavy hinges. Should work in '' both directions '' if most of the days you will use it 50 times or more!
Could also make a '' curtain like '' structure using smaller diameter bamboo pieces above 3 feet height and bigger ones below to create a more open structure on the upper side. That will give a nice visual effect but probably a restricted benefit in the lower frequency range. BUT i also do care about the looks. Already moved the VOT into a prominent area in my living room.
As usual any ideas are welcome.
Kind greetings, Eduard
Greets!
Agreed, the room dominates, so consider improving its acoustics is much more cost effective than paying a small fortune for some boutique driver with its typically real world minuscule improvement.
GM
Which XO, woofers? Did perchance record the drivers, cabs date codes [391xxx]?
Neither, the cabs are already inert enough, i.e. no way any vintage prosound woofer has enough power handling to excite it.
That said, IME cabs in general and especially massive ones, sound best overall when setting on a massive floor, so simple spikes [point down] long enough to 'float' the cabs over the cork is what I've done over carpet, hospital grade tiles.
Spikes upward is for when you have a suspended ['floating'] floor or mounting a speaker on top of a speaker or similar multiple vibration isolation system.
GM
Hello GM and other respectable members,
The bass cabin i made was published in the French l'Audiophile magazine. ( i would pay 200 $ a year to get 6 printed magazines like that every year).
It is the 825B bass bin and i made two differents '' frames '' for the opening to be able to reduce its dimensions.
The woofer i am using is the Altec 515-16G ( 16 ohm because the output transformer in my amp is designed for a higher impedance speaker than usual)
The horn on top is a sand filled horn designed by Mister Ledauphin and was published in the French magazine. The driver is the TAD2001. It is a well regarded combination . The TAD2001 ( originally a Pioneer division) is usually used with a solid wooden horn if you see it outside Europe.
The 12 db filter i am using is the filter as used by the French. I just adjusted the values because of the 16 ohm 515. I tried a few caps in the first years but the last 20 years they remained the same. A Spraque paper ( in oil ? ) for the 515 and a Philips paper ( probably no oil) for the TAD2001.
In the near future i wanna go for passive bi amping using a 12 db network at the input of the power amps. Sound Practices republished this idea from Audio? magazine from the sixties. The French have done the same a few decades before.
It wont be that difficult to install the stainless steel spikes pointing downwards. On the side they have two holes so a tool can be '' inserted '' to make them turn anti- or clockwise. In the center is a M10 thread so if i use a small stainless steel plate with a M10 welded stud glued to the down side of the bin it is easy to lift up the bins with a simple turn. Just find some piece of metal to protect the cork tiles. I have to lift them just a little more than the height with the wheels so around 3 inches.
NOT sure if i do have 2 more points otherwise i will need to use 3 . I think 3 will have better stability , anyway it will be easier to create one '' level ''
I read in the French article that the wings are not that wide about 11 inch. There is a little more baffle already because of the sandfilled side panels.
SO i wonder if i could just '' install '' two big diameter ( 4 to 4,5 inches ) bamboo poles between the floor and the yellow painted horizontal wooden bar. They would be a little bit recessed to be mounted in the middle of 4,7 inch bar. If they will give 75% of the benefits of real wings but look much nicer i will order them. Being circular shaped they are strong ( have seen a lot of bamboo in construction in Asia) and if sand filled they wont rattle.
I think by turning i can reduce the space in between the 2 poles making a pair. Some bamboo is more tapered than others.
A bit hard to imagine the looks but i think if the poles themselves look nice it will be rather special!!.
Greetings, Eduard
The bass cabin i made was published in the French l'Audiophile magazine. ( i would pay 200 $ a year to get 6 printed magazines like that every year).
It is the 825B bass bin and i made two differents '' frames '' for the opening to be able to reduce its dimensions.
The woofer i am using is the Altec 515-16G ( 16 ohm because the output transformer in my amp is designed for a higher impedance speaker than usual)
The horn on top is a sand filled horn designed by Mister Ledauphin and was published in the French magazine. The driver is the TAD2001. It is a well regarded combination . The TAD2001 ( originally a Pioneer division) is usually used with a solid wooden horn if you see it outside Europe.
The 12 db filter i am using is the filter as used by the French. I just adjusted the values because of the 16 ohm 515. I tried a few caps in the first years but the last 20 years they remained the same. A Spraque paper ( in oil ? ) for the 515 and a Philips paper ( probably no oil) for the TAD2001.
In the near future i wanna go for passive bi amping using a 12 db network at the input of the power amps. Sound Practices republished this idea from Audio? magazine from the sixties. The French have done the same a few decades before.
It wont be that difficult to install the stainless steel spikes pointing downwards. On the side they have two holes so a tool can be '' inserted '' to make them turn anti- or clockwise. In the center is a M10 thread so if i use a small stainless steel plate with a M10 welded stud glued to the down side of the bin it is easy to lift up the bins with a simple turn. Just find some piece of metal to protect the cork tiles. I have to lift them just a little more than the height with the wheels so around 3 inches.
NOT sure if i do have 2 more points otherwise i will need to use 3 . I think 3 will have better stability , anyway it will be easier to create one '' level ''
I read in the French article that the wings are not that wide about 11 inch. There is a little more baffle already because of the sandfilled side panels.
SO i wonder if i could just '' install '' two big diameter ( 4 to 4,5 inches ) bamboo poles between the floor and the yellow painted horizontal wooden bar. They would be a little bit recessed to be mounted in the middle of 4,7 inch bar. If they will give 75% of the benefits of real wings but look much nicer i will order them. Being circular shaped they are strong ( have seen a lot of bamboo in construction in Asia) and if sand filled they wont rattle.
I think by turning i can reduce the space in between the 2 poles making a pair. Some bamboo is more tapered than others.
A bit hard to imagine the looks but i think if the poles themselves look nice it will be rather special!!.
Greetings, Eduard
Hi Eduard, first try REW free software, then you can get a better idea of how to most effectively acoustically treat your room.
Useful information, links to REW and how to guides...
Accurate Sound - Accurate Sound Reproduction | Accurate Sound
What is Accurate Sound? - Bits and Bytes - Audiophile Style
Acoustic Treatment 101: The Ultimate Guide for Home Studios
Hello,
Sorry for a late answer but i didnt visit this thread because there were not many answers.
I already bought a Dayton microphone and installed AudioTool on my samsung tablet. However didnt use it yet because my the VOT set is waiting for an amp to be ready.
The respectable member named Pano told me that he would prefer the active subwoofers ( i have a pair) to be close to the VOT to have a left and a right subwoofer.
So far i have used the pair just for watching movies.
Now there is one subwoofer on the right side of the right VOT and the other one is on the left in the corner about 7 to 8 feet distance from my listening position.
Most people write that positioning them like this will cause less problems that need to solved with bass traps.
I did a TINY bit of measuring in one corner with a range of frequencies and if i remember well there were two peaks that clearly '' popped up '' One at 31 and one at 50 if i remember right. The shop that sold me the Caruso material told me to focus on 50 and not on 31 while choosing what depth to use for the bass traps. If i make them 400 mm (15,7 inch) deep it will give 0,65 absorption with the 5000 resistivity panels. Making it 800 mm wont make a lot difference so better have two traps each 400mm depth. If want it to work at 31 hertz without making a tuned absorber you will need 3000 resistivity and a fridge size.
Greetings, Eduard
Sorry for a late answer but i didnt visit this thread because there were not many answers.
I already bought a Dayton microphone and installed AudioTool on my samsung tablet. However didnt use it yet because my the VOT set is waiting for an amp to be ready.
The respectable member named Pano told me that he would prefer the active subwoofers ( i have a pair) to be close to the VOT to have a left and a right subwoofer.
So far i have used the pair just for watching movies.
Now there is one subwoofer on the right side of the right VOT and the other one is on the left in the corner about 7 to 8 feet distance from my listening position.
Most people write that positioning them like this will cause less problems that need to solved with bass traps.
I did a TINY bit of measuring in one corner with a range of frequencies and if i remember well there were two peaks that clearly '' popped up '' One at 31 and one at 50 if i remember right. The shop that sold me the Caruso material told me to focus on 50 and not on 31 while choosing what depth to use for the bass traps. If i make them 400 mm (15,7 inch) deep it will give 0,65 absorption with the 5000 resistivity panels. Making it 800 mm wont make a lot difference so better have two traps each 400mm depth. If want it to work at 31 hertz without making a tuned absorber you will need 3000 resistivity and a fridge size.
Greetings, Eduard
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