@Digitalthor - I'm currently reading the latest version of Floyd Tools' "Sound Reproduction.." book and I think I agree with you.
I have built a pair of "nice" speakers last year (the Heissmann Samuel HQs) to be used in a much less than optimal room - my 5x5.5m kitchen.
Due to the fact that it's a *kitchen*, I can't pull the speakers out, so they're in the corners.
Then I was given a Umik1 by a friend, spent quite some evenings reading up on and learning about measuring my speakers / room using REW, using REW to calculate filters (doing everything wrong in the beginning, like trying to flatten the entire spectrum) and in the end got results (using just a few PEQ filters, below 700hz, now performed by a Raspberry Pi with Hifiberry DAC+ DSP) that to me were *stunning*.
Stunning ofcourse compared to what it sounded like before - when I just put these speakers (that were designed to measure flat) in the corners of my room, reflecting on anything and everything.
Ofcourse these reflections and comb-filtering are still there, the PEQ doesn't change that.
In my listening position it sounds much better now.
At other spots in the room though the bass booms and whatever.
I've managed to make the best of a bad situation for me with a particular listening spot in mind, but I have no doubt at all that all this could sound immensely better in a better suited room.
Speakers 40%, Room 60%, everything else is a cludge to make the best of a non-optimal situation.
I have built a pair of "nice" speakers last year (the Heissmann Samuel HQs) to be used in a much less than optimal room - my 5x5.5m kitchen.
Due to the fact that it's a *kitchen*, I can't pull the speakers out, so they're in the corners.
Then I was given a Umik1 by a friend, spent quite some evenings reading up on and learning about measuring my speakers / room using REW, using REW to calculate filters (doing everything wrong in the beginning, like trying to flatten the entire spectrum) and in the end got results (using just a few PEQ filters, below 700hz, now performed by a Raspberry Pi with Hifiberry DAC+ DSP) that to me were *stunning*.
Stunning ofcourse compared to what it sounded like before - when I just put these speakers (that were designed to measure flat) in the corners of my room, reflecting on anything and everything.
Ofcourse these reflections and comb-filtering are still there, the PEQ doesn't change that.
In my listening position it sounds much better now.
At other spots in the room though the bass booms and whatever.
I've managed to make the best of a bad situation for me with a particular listening spot in mind, but I have no doubt at all that all this could sound immensely better in a better suited room.
Speakers 40%, Room 60%, everything else is a cludge to make the best of a non-optimal situation.
@Pygmy
This is awesome
You tried your best, your learned something by trial and error and you got the best result possible - wonderful
you are doing exactly what I would have done - getting the best of the situation and only used enough tweaks to make it work
If you should one day want to improve on this. Then a couple of smaller subwooferes, could even out the lower response, so that you'll get a smoother response all over.
This could be two small closed subwoofers with an 8" - pulled by a little stereo power amplifier.
Do you have two extra outputs from the DSP?
This is awesome
You tried your best, your learned something by trial and error and you got the best result possible - wonderful you are doing exactly what I would have done - getting the best of the situation and only used enough tweaks to make it work
If you should one day want to improve on this. Then a couple of smaller subwooferes, could even out the lower response, so that you'll get a smoother response all over.
This could be two small closed subwoofers with an 8" - pulled by a little stereo power amplifier.
Do you have two extra outputs from the DSP?
that may be true to some, but for me it is not, when i started to hear faults it is then very difficult not to hear them
wow, that is a very large kitchen speakermy wife would never let me have such a big speaker in our kitchen
I agree that we cant adapt to all kinds of distortion. At some point it gets to much and some people are more prone to hearing mistakes than others - or simply accept them at a higher degree.
And we're not all married
@Pygmy
This is awesome
you are doing exactly what I would have done - getting the best of the situation and only used enough tweaks to make it work
If you should one day want to improve on this. Then a couple of smaller subwooferes, could even out the lower response, so that you'll get a smoother response all over.
This could be two small closed subwoofers with an 8" - pulled by a little stereo power amplifier.
Do you have two extra outputs from the DSP?
Adding subwoofers is a no-go ;-)
The Samuel HQ's I built were quite a bit bigger than my wife expected already, can't add more to the kitchen
Still, these puppies theoretically go down to 36Hz (+-3dB).
I don't know if my builds actually do, but they sure sound like they have a lot of oomph in the lower regions.
I at least expect them to have no / less cabinet resonance than the reference build as mine were built using 25mm of slate stone for the side panels... And slate damps about 250% more than MDF at the same thickness
After measuring (a lot) and using the RPI to do the PEQ, I'm happy with the way they sound.
I'm still trying to figure out a way to switch the RPI PEQ on and off remotely (phone or tablet), just to have people understand the difference it can make.
Because seriously, when I switch it off after hearing it like this it's like - "Ehhhh.. what? where did the music go?"
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@Pygmy
Subwoofers do something else than normal speakers - because they are placed differently. Speakers has to be placed for optimum stereo image. Subwoofers help even out the low frequency response, by filling in and canceling out dips and peaks in the total response. But if you do not have room - then have the best,your speakers can manage - agreed.
I have 4 presets, that I can switch between from the couch - but it's also a way different beast that I use ;o)
Yes! - when you first start enjoying the big difference a well implemented DSP can deliver - you'll never want to live without it again.
Subwoofers do something else than normal speakers - because they are placed differently. Speakers has to be placed for optimum stereo image. Subwoofers help even out the low frequency response, by filling in and canceling out dips and peaks in the total response. But if you do not have room - then have the best,your speakers can manage - agreed.
I have 4 presets, that I can switch between from the couch - but it's also a way different beast that I use ;o)
Yes! - when you first start enjoying the big difference a well implemented DSP can deliver - you'll never want to live without it again.
Whenever I hear somebody say something like, "it's just common sense" or like Just Dave seems to be saying, I figure they weren't paying close attention to just what was said or what used to be accepted as common sense last year.
As far as the long video, it is full of stuff "that is just common sense" after somebody explains it to you for the first time.
An exception that is a rather new idea however, is after about 19 minutes when Toole rather off-handedly utters the Toole Critique: your brain is "listening through the room".*
B.
*Probably Helmholtz actually said something like this long ago.
Same could actually also be said about money, food, health, exercise, sex, happiness... etc. As Toole also pointed out - we as humans are often fickle
I tried many times to teach others about things that I new - and believe me, it went the other way too
Some are just better teachers than others and have better voices and choices of words.Try and read some of the threads where Geddes tries to explain about multiple subs and acoustics. Here you will see that people are still fighting to grasp many basic principles.
Blumlein style array?
Can you elaborate more on how you superimpose your 4 speakers in a Blumlein style array? Maybe some pictures? I've got 4 identical speakers and an amp to run them all ready to try it.
Can you elaborate more on how you superimpose your 4 speakers in a Blumlein style array? Maybe some pictures? I've got 4 identical speakers and an amp to run them all ready to try it.
Seems you've missed the question in this thread.
Toole's contention is that tonal adjustment primarily addresses shortcomings of the source. The room isn't the principal object of correction since the room is what it is and we don't "hear" the room any more than Uncle Jack sounds different in different rooms.
B.
Toole's contention is that tonal adjustment primarily addresses shortcomings of the source. The room isn't the principal object of correction since the room is what it is and we don't "hear" the room any more than Uncle Jack sounds different in different rooms.
B.
Uncle Jack does sound different in different rooms, and outdoors also.
Of course if you are very close to him, you'll be in the near field and
will hear less of the room.
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I'd think it depends on the recording. If the recording was done in a room, then that room sound is superimposed on your room's sound. If a recording of, say, all electric instruments (or acoustic in an anechoic space) was done direct to a board, dry, well it should sound like Mr Tubbs, Uncle Jack and Tommy were all playing there in your room.
I dont think a lot of recordings are made that way, so you get rid of the effects of your room so you can better hear the effects of the room the recording was made in - or the ambience the recording engineer intended to convey.
Teenage revelation; my father gave me a roofing job for a summer. So I put my speakers at the edge of a low sloping part. The sound stopped me dead - "so that's what it's supposed to sound like". No back wall, no side walls, no ceiling.
Demo I attended in college; guy on stage in a recital hall with two RTRs, a couple mikes (one out in the audience) and a PA. He speaks and records it on one deck, then plays that back while recording it on the other. Goes back and forth with this until all you hear is the room's sound as excited by his voice - which was completely GONE by the time he finished.
I bet with modern technology it's be easy to do that with Pink noise, a PC, A/D and a measurement mic. I wonder what the noise would start to sound like sound like after a few passes?
I dont think a lot of recordings are made that way, so you get rid of the effects of your room so you can better hear the effects of the room the recording was made in - or the ambience the recording engineer intended to convey.
Teenage revelation; my father gave me a roofing job for a summer. So I put my speakers at the edge of a low sloping part. The sound stopped me dead - "so that's what it's supposed to sound like". No back wall, no side walls, no ceiling.
Demo I attended in college; guy on stage in a recital hall with two RTRs, a couple mikes (one out in the audience) and a PA. He speaks and records it on one deck, then plays that back while recording it on the other. Goes back and forth with this until all you hear is the room's sound as excited by his voice - which was completely GONE by the time he finished.
I bet with modern technology it's be easy to do that with Pink noise, a PC, A/D and a measurement mic. I wonder what the noise would start to sound like sound like after a few passes?
Joe, you make a good point. However the balance between your room's ambience and that on the recording is fixed by the acoustics of your speakers, their placement and the room. Not a matter for EQ.
Unless I missed your point.
Unless I missed your point.
Right point, wrong example. Humans instinctively tune in to human voices.
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