Speaker Positioning

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Positioning speakers in a room is something we all do. How do we do it? What guides us? What works?

I mostly use my own version of Master Set. It works for any speaker in any room. Most guides and methods presuppose one has a perfectly symmetrical rectangular room. My room is quite irregular and thus I need the any speaker/any room way.

Learned a lot from the Dave Wilson 2016 video, especially regards the Zone of Neutrality.
See here: YouTube
You can also read this in any Wilson speaker manual.

I have posted what I do here: Master Set Revisited - 2019
 
I've read your post and I agree with that the point where If the speakers are pulled apart, the main centered voice or instrument begins to fade, is key to find the best position. Put the speakers closer together, and you can get strong positive colorations in the mids, put them further apart and the mids will become recessed, and it can even appear fatige due a comparatively stronger highs. Depending on the speaker dispersion, of course.

I think this has probably to do, as well as with the phase, with early reflections, because when positioned in a much bigger space, the same speakers seem less sensitive to positioning.

Dealing with room modes is also another matter to have into account when looking for the best set up, for both speakers and the listening point.



The drama for a beginner is that a less than perfect positioning can ruin any system, whatever the price tag. And a relatively modest but well positioned system in a relatively friendly acoustical enviroment can sound very well. And it can take long to realize and/or solve that. I know people with expensive gear that still are listening to the music coming from the speakers, instead of having something close to a true 3D holographic experience plenty of detail, dynamics and separation.

I think this point will never be stressed enaugh. Thanks for the input.



Regards.
 
Sergi,
Nice to read your post. Your post brought up some good points.
Phase is really everything. You need to have the speakers set so that the sound arrives to you in perfect phase from both speakers. That may sound easy but it is not easy to do mostly because of room effects. The simple method that I use considers room effects in the procedure so that the sound you end up hearing from the speakers is in tune with the room exactly as the room is.

And now that I have this sound, it is like getting a whole new music collection as all music discs now sound so much better than before. I could go on and on.

I have posted a pic of my set up. As can be seen it looks fairly conventional. However, the speakers are positioned perfectly to work completely together.
 

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Thanks, very nice system. Are those speakers DIY ? they are stunnig.


If I understand well when you say phase is all, we are talking about mids , when halve the wave length is of the same order of magnitude of small speaker displacements we usually make to fine tune.

At much lower Hz that small distances don't modiphy the phase significally, and at higer frequencies you are having lots of comb filters anyway due to reflections.



Of course, mids are the main area to take care. As somebody said, music is in the mids.
 
Thanks, very nice system. Are those speakers DIY ? they are stunnig.


If I understand well when you say phase is all, we are talking about mids , when halve the wave length is of the same order of magnitude of small speaker displacements we usually make to fine tune.

At much lower Hz that small distances don't modiphy the phase significally, and at higer frequencies you are having lots of comb filters anyway due to reflections.



Of course, mids are the main area to take care. As somebody said, music is in the mids.

My whole system is DIY and pretty much one off.
The player is Marantz on the outside and DIY inside.
The volume control is constructed by me from Tortuga audio parts.
The amp was designed by Hugh Dean and Paul Bysouth, both active on the forum, and completely constructed by me, including the pcbs and their design.
The speakers were designed by Rick Craig of Selah Audio long ago, and were constructed in 2018.
 
Wow !!! You must be (or you should be, at least) very proud of your system.



Years ago I made some PCB's as well, including the hole making. Very time consuming. The longest was a 24 band equaliser, lots of op-amps to accommodate. I can imagine all the efforts put in a completely diy system. My respects.
 
I watched the BW 2016 video: this man talks slow..... thank God for 1.5 speed playback.

Sorry, to say but IMO this perfect phase is complete nonsense. Yes, phase is important, but you will never get it all-right (or perfect) with full-range speakers in a room. The mids/highs need a different location then the lows.

Having a separate sub/bass woofer which you put in a corner or in front of a wall, gives the best phase/ tightest bass and the least in room cancellations. Bigger size (sub) woofers or stacks should even point at a wall to inhibit phasing problems from the wall it stands in front.

Sources need to be within 1/4 wavelength they emit or more then 2 wavelengths apart and half of those distances to walls, floors and ceilings.

This makes that the bass needs to be mono and all bass/subwoofers close to each other and in a corner. Most of recorded music has it's bass allready recorded in mono, which gives big cancellations when played over 2 sources (speakers) close together. The “Power Alley” - Discussion & Solutions To The Troubling Interaction Of Subwoofers - ProSoundWeb

IMO 2.1 is the better 3 way system. Bass has a sound and a feel. Good/tight/full bass is a matter of correct phasing and you can feel this better then hear it. It is the feeling that makes you want to dance.
Most people seem to place their woofers to get a even volume across the room but don't seem to realize that the phase gets completely messed up and the bass is a mess and the volume it not even at all.

In PA having sub-woofers left and right with the sticks for the tops is often the worst possible setup. Only positive of that setup is that the woofers a coupled with the ground, but are fighting each other and themselves with reflections from walls and ceilings.
At low volume this is not very noticeable, but when the volume goes up, the feeling (to dance) is just not there. Only exception are very big audio playback systems and live music with bass sources double mic-ed or fully panned left or right to avoid these cancellations. A nice demo from Dave Rat YouTube

For the tops (mid and highs); all distances to walls (floor and ceilings are also walls) should be unequal and use 1: phi (1.608 golden ratio) or about 5:8 as much as possible.

// I don't setup my or any sound up for 1 listening spot, but for a good sound in most of the room or car, party location etc.
 
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Wow !!! You must be (or you should be, at least) very proud of your system.



Years ago I made some PCB's as well, including the hole making. Very time consuming. The longest was a 24 band equaliser, lots of op-amps to accommodate. I can imagine all the efforts put in a completely diy system. My respects.

HI Sergi,
Yes, I'm pleased with my system, and pleased that I have been able to do most all the construction myself. Once I got the DIY bug in 2002 it just slowly progressed until I ended up with what I now have.
Steve
 
I watched the BW 2016 video: this man talks slow..... thank God for 1.5 speed playback.

Sorry, to say but IMO this perfect phase is complete nonsense. Yes, phase is important, but you will never get it all-right (or perfect) with full-range speakers in a room.


IMO 2.1 is the better 3 way system. Bass has a sound and a feel. Good/tight/full bass is a matter of correct phasing and you can feel this better then hear it. It is the feeling that makes you want to dance.
Most people seem to place their woofers to get a even volume across the room but don't seem to realize that the phase gets completely messed up and the bass is a mess and the volume it not even at all.

/ I don't setup my or any sound up for 1 listening spot, but for a good sound in most of the room or car, party location etc.

Good to have a somewhat divergent opinion.
Of course you wrote BW 2016 video when you meant the Wilson Audio video. Maybe you don't think much of his "Zone of Neutrality", but if you try it yourself you should easily hear the sound of your voice change when you move away from the wall as in the video. Still, you may think nothing of it.

You write that you disregard my phrase "perfect phase", and then write a paragraph about perfect phase being essential in the bass. You have thus confirmed the whole purpose of my first procedural step, getting the bass as good as possible. Getting the bass right is also what David Wilson does, and also the person who came up with the "Sumiko Method", Stirling Trayle, does. So I suppose we do mostly agree here, okay.

My pic does not show all. The speakers are 2 1/2 way and there is a sub in the corner to the right of the right speaker that fills in the bottom couple of octaves and has a steep midbass cutoff.

But mostly I would be interested in what you do to get your speakers positioned for the sound you describe, as the end result seems much the same as what I aim for. Perhaps that was not clear in my presentation.
I'm assuming you use some method or procedure to do this, and you should be able to explain it.
 
I start with Cardas recommended distances from front and side walls and then experiment from there with small changes and trial and error. Once it seems good to me I then run Dirac Live. It’s an iterative approach. Same with room treatments. I get them close using rule of thumb and then dial them in by ear and using measurements and frequency analysis.
 
I start with Cardas recommended distances from front and side walls and then experiment from there with small changes and trial and error. Once it seems good to me I then run Dirac Live. It’s an iterative approach. Same with room treatments. I get them close using rule of thumb and then dial them in by ear and using measurements and frequency analysis.

Thanks. Just the kind of post I was looking for in this thread.
 
Good to have a somewhat divergent opinion.
Of course you wrote BW 2016 video when you meant the Wilson Audio video. Maybe you don't think much of his "Zone of Neutrality", but if you try it yourself you should easily hear the sound of your voice change when you move away from the wall as in the video. Still, you may think nothing of it.

You write that you disregard my phrase "perfect phase", and then write a paragraph about perfect phase being essential in the bass. You have thus confirmed the whole purpose of my first procedural step, getting the bass as good as possible. Getting the bass right is also what David Wilson does, and also the person who came up with the "Sumiko Method", Stirling Trayle, does. So I suppose we do mostly agree here, okay.

My pic does not show all. The speakers are 2 1/2 way and there is a sub in the corner to the right of the right speaker that fills in the bottom couple of octaves and has a steep midbass cutoff.

But mostly I would be interested in what you do to get your speakers positioned for the sound you describe, as the end result seems much the same as what I aim for. Perhaps that was not clear in my presentation.
I'm assuming you use some method or procedure to do this, and you should be able to explain it.
Biggest problem I have with "perfect fase", is that is will never be more then the best compromise fase.

When setting up speakers in a living room I first look at the room dimensions and make those and whole fractions like 1/2 1/4 of those lengths the 'forbidden' distances to walls (ceiling and floor included).
I like to use the golden ratio or 1: Phi (1 : 1.608 or about 5:8) as often as practically possible. I.e. when the ceiling is 2.5m in height, divide it by Phi and you get 1.55m. That distance from the ceiling or floor makes a good height for the woofers of you top/main speakers. Ideally you want the sound sources to be less then 1/4 of the wavelengths they emit or more then 2 wavelength apart and half of that to boundaries/walls. But most living rooms are to small for this and you will have to make some compromises here, but most important is that no 2 distances to walls are the same.
The type of speakers, roomsize and x-over frequency to the sub/bass woofer matter here but in general I Like high passes to be steeper then the low passes. And the smaller the room the higher the x-over.
 
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Biggest problem I have with "perfect fase", is that is will never be more then the best compromise fase.

When setting up speakers in a living room I first look at the room dimensions and make those and whole fractions like 1/2 1/4 of those lengths the 'forbidden' distances to walls (ceiling and floor included).
I like to use the golden ratio or 1: Phi (1 : 1.608 or about 5:8) as often as practically possible. I.e. when the ceiling is 2.5m in height, divide it by Phi and you get 1.55m. That distance from the ceiling or floor makes a good height for the woofers of you top/main speakers. Ideally you want the sound sources to be less then 1/4 of the wavelengths they emit or more then 2 wavelength apart and half of that to boundaries/walls. But most living rooms are to small for this and you will have to make some compromises here, but most important is that no 2 distances to walls are the same.
The type of speakers, room size and x-over frequency to the sub/bass woofer matter here but in general I Like high passes to be steeper then the low passes. And the smaller the room the higher the x-over.

Hi, Thanks for this post. I think I now understand what you are doing.
I have also taken consideration of some of your points and I have made some changes to my write up of what I do.
 

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Yw, that reads like a sound plan.
For my last post I was looking for A Master Class in speaker placement and keep in mind that the floor and ceiling are walls as well.

We are looking for the least bad locations for the speakers (least acoustical problems) and call that the best locations for that room.

I watched the complete video and there are some good points raised, like set the bass for smoothest and best bass, then firm up the stereo image, and use music to do this. This is exactly what I do.
However, I set out a procedure for doing this, and the video does not. But nonetheless, the video is good.
 
Speaker Positioning Update

I have now simplified how I position my speakers in my room. This is much simpler than the Master Set many step method I used to do, requires no special recording, doesn't take too long, and has a better chance of success.

SIMPLE SPEAKER SETUP

INTRODUCTION:
This is a simple two step procedure done with ears only that will result in a near perfect stereo music image from a large listening area in a room.
Best results are obtained when speakers are set along the longer wall in the room and equidistant from the acoustic center of the room.
All that is needed is a mono recording, no specific one.

SOME SIMPLE WORDS
The goal with my procedure is equal loading of the room from each speaker. Thus you will hear each speaker equally in most any place in the listening room. You can then sit comfortably most any place in the room and get the same sound.
You will also get a perfectly summed stereo image, like the mastering engineer who did the work on the recording.

A mono recording works to perfection. By definition, a mono recording is equal in each channel and will perfectly sum in the middle. And with equal loading of the room from each speaker the sound of the mono recording will always stay perfectly in the middle.

STEP ONE:
Setting One Speaker as Reference.
The speaker needs to be out from the wall behind it into an area of least effect with regards to the room boundaries. This is what Dave Wilson refers to as the Zone of Neutrality. You can do this either as Wilson does or as done in the Master Set method. Don’t just make a random placement, follow one of the procedures.
If your speaker/amp combo provides good deep bass reproduction, following the Master Set method here might get the best smoothest bass response. But this requires a specified hard to get recording, or another recording with good easy to hear bass line. You are basically trying to find spots where there is least effect regarding exciting the room modes and nulls, and can be difficult.

STEP TWO:
Setting the Other Speaker to get perfect stereo image
The intention here is to have equal loading of the room from each speaker. This will give essentially the same sound throughout most of the room and provide the best stereo image possible from the recording.
Position the right speaker approximately the same distance into the room as the left speaker. Don’t use a tape just a rough approximation is all that is necessary. Don’t use much, if any, toe in. Keep them mostly straight ahead, or with just a slight amount of toe in.
Play the mono recording. Sit in the normal listening seat, which most likely is on the center line between the two speakers. The mono image should be directly in the middle. Now move over a couple of seat positions to the right, and note any change in the mono image.
If the image moves over to the right with you, the right speaker is dominant and needs adjustment. Move the right speaker inwards toward the wall a small amount, no more than 4 mm’s, or ¼ inch maximum. Note any change. The image should move to the left a little as you move the speaker inward toward the wall in these small movements. Depending on the room itself, the mono image should center itself with just one or two adjustments. But keep at it under it does.
Then move back to the center listening position and note the sound, which should still be in the middle.
Then move over to the left the same distance as you moved to the right. Note if the sound moves with you to the left or stays in the center. If it stays in the center you are done. If it moves to the left with you, then adjust the right speaker by moving it out into the room a very small amount, just a nudge or a couple millimeters.
Keep fine tuning in this manner until the mono image is stays exactly in the middle at all three seating positions.
That is all there is to it.
From here, you can then address any concerns that you may with the room, if any. But DON”T TOUCH THE SPEAKERS, they are perfectly set.
 
here is an critical distance calculator to use

Critical Distance calculator

as far as i understand it, if you are not sitting equal distance from both speakers then the sound will colapse to the nearest speaker, this because how our hearing works. if you then pushing your speakers further away and closer to the wall behind the speaker to compensate for the non equal distance then the speaker will end up in some kind of the rooms diffuse field, will this not make the speaker sound colored?
 
Hi Celef,
I like that Critical Distance Calculator. It's pretty spiffy. However it's not particularly useful for a music listening room in a house that has furnishings and other things in it, and that does not have symmetrical dimensions. It's nice and useful for a perfectly symmetrical room with nothing much in it. I have the former, not the latter.

I will only add that mono provides a reference sound. Mono is equal in each channel and will sum perfectly in the middle. If the speakers are equally loading the room with sound the mono sound will always sum in the middle of the speakers no matter where you sit in the room, the same is if there was only one speaker in the room.

Good luck sitting equal distance from each speaker. You have to sit almost still as a statue. Can you do that? Also, you are only sitting on the center line between the speaker enclosures. You then hear each speaker with each ear. Those distances cannot ever be the same. The best that can be done is two sets of same distances. But if you move your head even a small amount, the distances all change, as does the sound. You always hear the louder speaker.

BTW, since my method is simple and doesn't take long, it is easy to try. If you cannot get it just right or don't like the result, easy to move your speakers back to previous position. It does take a sense of adventure however.
 
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