Hi,
You just asked the million dollar question
I was addicted to speakerbuilding for many years and I tried to use both the best drivers and components and try as many design concepts as possible-open baffle, full range, passive, active, 2-,3,-4-way,Duelund style crossovers, magnetostatic, you name it. 25 years of experiments before I realized it was the speaker plus the room and some of my "failures" at home sounded magnificent in other places.
But if I were to go back I would build the ZD5 by Zaphauudio and the LX mini by SL(RIP), those two can compete with any of the high end designs up to 5K on the market for not much money. A lot of money if you want them to look good. This is what makes the big difference.
If I were to try now - I would build the Purifi 2-way. Actually I would start with whatever xrk971 says he likes best The way he does things and the way he puts his into words makes me feel his designs are what I would invest in first.
Just my very humble opinion.
You just asked the million dollar question
I was addicted to speakerbuilding for many years and I tried to use both the best drivers and components and try as many design concepts as possible-open baffle, full range, passive, active, 2-,3,-4-way,Duelund style crossovers, magnetostatic, you name it. 25 years of experiments before I realized it was the speaker plus the room and some of my "failures" at home sounded magnificent in other places.
But if I were to go back I would build the ZD5 by Zaphauudio and the LX mini by SL(RIP), those two can compete with any of the high end designs up to 5K on the market for not much money. A lot of money if you want them to look good. This is what makes the big difference.
If I were to try now - I would build the Purifi 2-way. Actually I would start with whatever xrk971 says he likes best
The way he does things and the way he puts his into words makes me feel his designs are what I would invest in first.Just my very humble opinion.
What would you guys say is the best DIY kit value wise in terms of competing with commercial offerings?
Nephila looks good: Nephila | Parts Express Project Gallery
Nephila looks good: Nephila | Parts Express Project Gallery
I built a pair of 2-way bookshelves with sb15nac and sb26stac ported, 2nd order XO. For some applications I prefer them to my Paradigm Prestige 85F - particularly acoustic guitar and other less complex music. They start to sound less clean and a bit muddled with higher complexity music (lots of metal for example). I suspect that's due to more intermodulation distortion with the higher complexity music.
Considering they cost a few hundred to build compared with the $4k of the Paradigms, I'd call that a great success.
Considering they cost a few hundred to build compared with the $4k of the Paradigms, I'd call that a great success.
If you'll look, Jeff actually approved of my Nephila in a post on PETT. My stuff is not all bad by comparison as you have made it sound by your posted opinion.
The Nephila actually had the highest score in all 4 categories at MWAF in 2015.
Here's Jeff's post:
Heard an Excellent Speaker Yesterday -
Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video Discussion Forum
Best regards,
Wolf
A competently designed and built DIY speaker will compare favorably to a commercially produced speaker, but at what price point?
15 to 20 years ago, most high-end speakers used off-the-shelf drivers. I could look at a ProAc, Monitor Audio, PSB, Snell, or Thiel and easilly identify the drivers as Seas, ScanSpeak, Vifa, Focal, Dynaudio, Audax, etc. So it was easy to compare the cost of the drivers with the retail cost of the speaker.
The ratio was almost always between 5 and 10 times the cost of the drivers. Complex cabinets drove the ratio up, sophisticated cabinet finishes (high-gloss rosewood veneer, etc) drove the ratio up. Speakers made in the UK or Europe had a higher ratio than ones made in the US, and Canadian built speakers had a lower ratio... Some speakers had such elaborate cabinet construction that the ratio was very high... Wilson and Dunlavy (Duntech) come to mind... But those were the exception.
It is harder to do such comparisons now. Speaker manufacturers now specify enough cosmetic changes to their drivers that it is harder to identify them. And driver makers are more willing to make special runs of drivers for manufacturers.
But where we can identify drivers, the ratio is still valid. Speakers built in China are closer to a ratio of 5... Speakers built in the US, Canada, or Europe are closer to 10.
So how much does a cabinet cost to build ?... If you are KEF or Harmon I do not know. If you are a small operation that builds 30 pairs of speakers a month, I think I can guess. There is also packaging and shipping costs. Distributor and retailer markups.
When I look at a really well done commercial speaker like the Revel Performa F228Be, I see about $1200 to $1400 worth of drivers, and the speaker sells for about $10,000... A ratio of 7 or 8. I also see a very well done cabinet, one that would take me many hours of labor to duplicate... and a crossover integration that is first rate. If I had to build an equivalent speaker, and sell it for a profit... I doubt I could sell it for $10k. I would be working for less than minimum wage...
So the point is... if you build a well regarded kit, your speakers will compare to commercial ones priced at 5x to 10x the cost of the drivers... if you do a great job on your cabinet (structurally, sonically, and aestheticly), your price ratio will be closer to 10x.
The same is true if you design your own, but only if you invest in the effort to learn the art and science of speaker design, and go through the learning curve of building some mistakes along the way.
15 to 20 years ago, most high-end speakers used off-the-shelf drivers. I could look at a ProAc, Monitor Audio, PSB, Snell, or Thiel and easilly identify the drivers as Seas, ScanSpeak, Vifa, Focal, Dynaudio, Audax, etc. So it was easy to compare the cost of the drivers with the retail cost of the speaker.
The ratio was almost always between 5 and 10 times the cost of the drivers. Complex cabinets drove the ratio up, sophisticated cabinet finishes (high-gloss rosewood veneer, etc) drove the ratio up. Speakers made in the UK or Europe had a higher ratio than ones made in the US, and Canadian built speakers had a lower ratio... Some speakers had such elaborate cabinet construction that the ratio was very high... Wilson and Dunlavy (Duntech) come to mind... But those were the exception.
It is harder to do such comparisons now. Speaker manufacturers now specify enough cosmetic changes to their drivers that it is harder to identify them. And driver makers are more willing to make special runs of drivers for manufacturers.
But where we can identify drivers, the ratio is still valid. Speakers built in China are closer to a ratio of 5... Speakers built in the US, Canada, or Europe are closer to 10.
So how much does a cabinet cost to build ?... If you are KEF or Harmon I do not know. If you are a small operation that builds 30 pairs of speakers a month, I think I can guess. There is also packaging and shipping costs. Distributor and retailer markups.
When I look at a really well done commercial speaker like the Revel Performa F228Be, I see about $1200 to $1400 worth of drivers, and the speaker sells for about $10,000... A ratio of 7 or 8. I also see a very well done cabinet, one that would take me many hours of labor to duplicate... and a crossover integration that is first rate. If I had to build an equivalent speaker, and sell it for a profit... I doubt I could sell it for $10k. I would be working for less than minimum wage...
So the point is... if you build a well regarded kit, your speakers will compare to commercial ones priced at 5x to 10x the cost of the drivers... if you do a great job on your cabinet (structurally, sonically, and aestheticly), your price ratio will be closer to 10x.
The same is true if you design your own, but only if you invest in the effort to learn the art and science of speaker design, and go through the learning curve of building some mistakes along the way.
i remember my first speaker design well.
it was for a mobile disco.
the amp i chose was 225wrms so bought 4 Fane 12"-50wrms drivers.
i started off with a 4 by 12 box but quickly realised it wouldnt fit in the car so split into 2 off 2 by 12. the speakers were only 3khZ bandwidth but sounded good.
the boxes were about 2' 6" by 16" by 10" and worked more by luck than judgement.
the setup could be incredibly loud.
it was for a mobile disco.
the amp i chose was 225wrms so bought 4 Fane 12"-50wrms drivers.
i started off with a 4 by 12 box but quickly realised it wouldnt fit in the car so split into 2 off 2 by 12. the speakers were only 3khZ bandwidth but sounded good.
the boxes were about 2' 6" by 16" by 10" and worked more by luck than judgement.
the setup could be incredibly loud.
For me, it was when my homebuilt FF85K single-drivers smoked my B&W DM602S3 speakers in the treble & with their point-source nature. The cabinets & physics were all wrong, based on what I know now, but the dispersion & their ability for music to seemingly hang in the air hooked me on single-drivers. Philip Glass’s solo violin music from Einstein on the Beach & Bang On A Can’s cover of the Music for Airports album were relevatory through the ‘85K drivers.
I’ve built several two-way speakers since, but I keep going back to single-drivers. I’m interested in coaxials, and that may be a project later this year or early next year.
I’ve built several two-way speakers since, but I keep going back to single-drivers. I’m interested in coaxials, and that may be a project later this year or early next year.
I needed a set in a pinch and built the Tritrix. Impressed with the TL sound immensely to where I wish they were all TL now. I thickened up the design a little and now they are my mothers set. I built a set of Triune that are nearly the same except the crossover and woofers which give better efficiency and a little more output before distorting. I am madly in love with the TL now and wish every design had the options for it. My next set will be the Statements II most likely from
Statements Tower Flat Pack I or II | Speaker Hardware
My techniques are steadily improving along with the results, however, I have come to find that with all the time spent and detail in the cabinets, that the drivers and components themselves should be about $1000 to equalize the efforts. Another set I have been eyeing is the Solstice at PE. In general, it's not worth my time to make the cabinets myself even though I am a woodworker/carpenter. I like to do more of the finish work and grille, stands etc..
Statements Tower Flat Pack I or II | Speaker Hardware
My techniques are steadily improving along with the results, however, I have come to find that with all the time spent and detail in the cabinets, that the drivers and components themselves should be about $1000 to equalize the efforts. Another set I have been eyeing is the Solstice at PE. In general, it's not worth my time to make the cabinets myself even though I am a woodworker/carpenter. I like to do more of the finish work and grille, stands etc..
It's probably impossible to beat $500 commercial speaker with $50 DIY speaker, but yes, we have a chance to build the world best speaker for $5000.
Anyway, I find it's funny to see DIY speaker world has less diversity than commercial speaker world. More same than different despite of its image.
It's probably impossible to beat $500 commercial speaker with $50 DIY speaker, but yes, we have a chance to build the world best speaker for $5000.
Anyway, I find it's funny to see DIY speaker world has less diversity than commercial speaker world. More same than different despite of its image.
Good point about the lower limit... I recently bought my Mother in law a pair of Cambridge SX-50 speakers for $200, and if I had to make something with similar sound quality it probably would have cost me about $150 ! When I observed the 5x to 10x price ratio, I was thinking of commercial speakers costing above $1000 / pair....
I am curious about your second point about diversity... I thought the opposite. On this site I see conventional T-M-W box speakers, full range drivers with no crossover, dipole open baffles, enormous horn drivers mated to multiple 15 inch bass drivers, line arrays, experimentation with tweeter wave guides, all varieties of active and passive crossovers, and endless arguments over cabinet construction methods... So I am curious about your perspective...
I would disagree - 99% of commercial high end speakers are bass reflex with a dome tweeter, some dynamic drivers, and in a generally rectangular prismatic box, possibly with rounded edges or maybe some bevels. They will have nice fit and finish and look good with furniture and decor.
It’s rare for a DIY speaker to have the same fit and finish but designs are much more varied: point source synergy style horns, transmission lines, waveguides, new XO topologies, horn subwoofers, transient perfect speakers, omni speakers, wall mounted speakers, back loaded horn full range driver speakers, etc.
I'd also disagree re diversity, if we are comparing commercial consumer speakers to DIY.
The number of different type speaker projects on DIY continually amazes me.
It seems to me most of the diversity in the commercial sector is about marketing, creating some sort of perceived product superiority, than diversity of substance.
If we are comparing DIY diversity to commercial prosound speakers, i'd give the diversity lead to prosound (live, install, major studio install).
The shear number of different speaker types between DIY and prosound may be close,
but prosound's lead in processing the various type speakers,... either singly, arrayed, cardioid, etc...is far ahead of DIY in so many ways...imho.
To answer the OP's question, i like the overall sound of my latest synergy attempt better than any commercial offering heard to date, consumer or prosound.
That said, i'd kill to hear a major studio install, like by Meyer or similar prosound manufacturer.
The number of different type speaker projects on DIY continually amazes me.
It seems to me most of the diversity in the commercial sector is about marketing, creating some sort of perceived product superiority, than diversity of substance.
If we are comparing DIY diversity to commercial prosound speakers, i'd give the diversity lead to prosound (live, install, major studio install).
The shear number of different speaker types between DIY and prosound may be close,
but prosound's lead in processing the various type speakers,... either singly, arrayed, cardioid, etc...is far ahead of DIY in so many ways...imho.
To answer the OP's question, i like the overall sound of my latest synergy attempt better than any commercial offering heard to date, consumer or prosound.
That said, i'd kill to hear a major studio install, like by Meyer or similar prosound manufacturer.
2 x 8 inch woofers, a 5 inch mid, a 1 inch dome, mounted in a tall narrow cabinet about 36 to 44 inches high, 8 to 11 inches wide, and 12 to 14 inches deep... ported...
How many commercial versions of this basic layout are on the market... ? dozens and dozens...
And for a good reason... this is a really good architecture, and it works well. But still, they all start to look the same after a while...
How many commercial versions of this basic layout are on the market... ? dozens and dozens...
And for a good reason... this is a really good architecture, and it works well. But still, they all start to look the same after a while...
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