Germanium in the World of solid state (preamps)

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selenium

Rectifiers isn't so important like transistors who amplified audio signal. "Sound" of the rectifiers depend on supply construction also. Rectifiers are important because of the (unpleasend sound) distortion in the audio signal. Germanium in output transistors is interesant because of his internal ressonant signature...
Tray do find sound of old Hammond organ with silicon transistors :hot: :xeye: It's efect but....
Sound of the solid state amplification depend most od dizajn of the amplifier, but different transistors (like different tubes) sounds different...
 
Gooooood!.... they start to conduct with small energy

They are a little noisy...but wonderfull sound....i remember one Open Rell tape recorder, one Englishman that lived here put it to work. I became crazy!..... and still crazy... and this is very good feeling!

All germaniun units.... some 3 or 4 stages... condenser coupled, one oscilator... and some switches...but the sound was impressive..in those english speakers completely sealed... wonderfull.... tell us some... do you have those components in your country?

Carlos
 
I haven't really listened to germanium audio gear such as it has existed but intrinsic germanium has a higher dielectric constant than silicon does which is not a positive sign.

Btw, is there any gallium arsenide audio out there? For lower voltage applications, e.g. line level audio, I always got the impression that it has the potential to sonically outperform both silicon and germanium, everything else being equal.
 
Re: Gooooood!.... they start to conduct with small energy

destroyer X said:
They are a little noisy...but wonderfull sound....i remember one Open Rell tape recorder, one Englishman that lived here put it to work. I became crazy!..... and still crazy... and this is very good feeling!

All germaniun units.... some 3 or 4 stages... condenser coupled, one oscilator... and some switches...but the sound was impressive..in those english speakers completely sealed... wonderfull.... tell us some... do you have those components in your country?

Carlos


Those components you can easy to find in selling program of Bürklin (one of the cathalogue electronic supplyer in Germany). It's nothing special to find this... Those components are normal thing in electronic ewen today
 
one stage germanium

phase_accurate said:
Many Germanium audio transistors don't even have an f-beta over 20 kHz. Now imagine what happens with more than one stage in use ! :xeye:

Regards

Charles


One stage in use, for the preamp is enough. For the High End audio amplification, it is very important to do all of amplification stages with a little different resonant signatures. In other case, you'll get a tipichal silicon sounding amp (far away from live performance..:smash: ;) )
 
technical vs sonical

thoriated said:
I haven't really listened to germanium audio gear such as it has existed but intrinsic germanium has a higher dielectric constant than silicon does which is not a positive sign.

Btw, is there any gallium arsenide audio out there? For lower voltage applications, e.g. line level audio, I always got the impression that it has the potential to sonically outperform both silicon and germanium, everything else being equal.


One is a technical and another is a sonical vuew on electronic component (and on electronic circuits also)
 
Circlotron said:
People usually like old stuff only when they have access to new stuff as well. Ask anyone who was around when there were no silicon transistors available. Were they really that nice? :dead:

Correct. I have build great many germanium transistors amplifiers long ago. They were absolutely horrible stuff. Noisy, ageing, distorting and extremely temperature dependent. Slow, probably that's why some of the poor designers like them.
 
electronic design

Your conclusion depent on (Your?) electronic circuit. Such simplification isnt answer on. Sound of every electronic componnent depend on characteristic of elecronic desig. If you made poor circuit (construction) than result is the same.:xeye:

Maybe you have to build some the new germanium preamp with your new (todays) experience and listen it ?
 
I remeber very well when they appear first time

And marketing was very strong, less leakage, more gain, better size, more power , less noise and all manufacturers try to send their own with some substitution tables and informations how to change bias resistors, base bias resistors to colector those times... had to change a lot because germanium worked with 200 milivolts or something alike... and silicon, you know.

But was the first time i perceive that sometimes progress has its problems too.... came together a very bad sound to all the radios we have modified.... more gain create saturations...more power result in bigger battery drains..... and super gain send too much noise floor to next stage....but the ones completely made with silicon worked better....but sounds where not warm anymore.... them i started my search to good sound....better, that i remember as a 2.5 watts kit with two Germanium Output AC187 and AC188.... great sound.... i open space in my closed... remove thing and i put a big wooden panel with a very soft 15 inches full range speaker..... and a thunder bass appear!.... i was astonished....only feel volts....better than the valve telefunken i had together in my room, those ones enormous, with some deflected "ears" to mid range and highs.... Radiola, Eletrola, those enormous furnitures of the sixties.

The young happy feeling with good deep bass is hard to obtain today.... i can hear it with "death o Zen"... and i spect to have it with the AKSA i am waiting as a Kid!....Crazy to touch it and here it....I will not do other thing!.... world will finish...i will go deep in AKSA!

Carlos
 
I am not so sure of germanium qualities ;) . Obviously it is impossible to simply replace silicon transistor into originally germanium circuit, as there is a different bias, quiescent current and speed. It would be the same mistake as to use tube topology for solid state designs. But frankly speaking, germanium transistors have so many limitations (noise, ageing, low bandwith, very low maximum operating temperature, very high reverse current etc. etc.) that we should not consider using them for new designs. There is no better germanium sound, probably there might be poor silicon sound due to poor design of the silicon amp.
 
Re: I remeber very well when they appear first time

destroyer X said:
And marketing was very strong, less leakage, more gain, better size, more power , less noise and all manufacturers try to send their own with some substitution tables and informations how to change bias resistors, base bias resistors to colector those times... had to change a lot because germanium worked with 200 milivolts or something alike... and silicon, you know.
....
world will finish...i will go deep in AKSA!

Carlos


BRAVO :att'n: (into the deep darkness I see the light ;) )
 
PMA said:
I am not so sure of germanium qualities ;) . Obviously it is impossible to simply replace silicon transistor into originally germanium circuit, as there is a different bias, quiescent current and speed. It would be the same mistake as to use tube topology for solid state designs. But frankly speaking, germanium transistors have so many limitations (noise, ageing, low bandwith, very low maximum operating temperature, very high reverse current etc. etc.) that we should not consider using them for new designs. There is no better germanium sound, probably there might be poor silicon sound due to poor design of the silicon amp.


You are all the time in the same mistakes. Sound of transistor is something in our opinion. Sound of electronic circuit with some transistors is only what exist in reality. Application of germanium in some preamp (line amplification) has nothing with noise, bias, ...... and surly nothing with this if we replace silicon transistor with germanium in the same circuit.

Your idea i like we speak about 6922 tube and recognized it like slowly sounding, with bandwith limitation and soft sounding (like in most designs). But this same valves sounds in Audio Research oposite different (because of electronic design). This same valve sound very noisi in most of Phonos but totaly without noise in some of the best circuits. Secret of the sound (reproduction of live) is in the synergy of elements and construction. You have experience with those transistors (I think) only with some basic circuits. Mr. destroyer write about hearing germanium in some cases.... ;)

People wants to find ultimate performanca. It exist? Yes. It exist in commercial market? I think NO. I we want something different (something new and better) we have to think without limitations in our brain...
 
"People usually like old stuff only when they have access to new stuff as well. Ask anyone who was around when there were no silicon transistors available. Were they really that nice?
Edit -> Tubes have *always* been nice."

Circlotron,

How right you are!
Back in the late sixties, I purchased an HH Scott "squalid state" amplifier to replace me old, reliable HH Scott 299C.
Boy was I disappointed!
The new and improved model used many germanium transistors.
The amplifier sounded like noisy, hissy, distorted hell.

A few years ago, I purchased another HH Scott model 299C TUBE amplifier. This rebuilt old amplifier (with it's rebuilt companion tuner) is in my workshop. I listen to the system every day.

I'm a "tubeophyte" (is that a word?).
 

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tubes

I am tube lover also ;) but

first (early)solid state designs were poor sounding. Its true. It's the same like the first valve designs. And the first silicon designs also. For the most people (20 years ago), valves were also too noisy, with too short live time, with hundreds of mistakes against transistors. But today? What today is different? Because of better tubes?

Reason is because we use old valves with some modern principles and with some modern (High End) thinking.

If you have poor valve design at home (even it is a modern, expensive high end amp), you are dissapointed. If you have solid, superb sounding valve design in your home, you are happy. Isn't with germanium the same thing? Whay not? Because we havn't any experience with?

All the troubles in this world are because people thinking something, without experience and without their wishes to learn something anusual to them.
 
The major problem with germanium transistors is "thermal runaway."
As germanium transistors heat up, they tend to draw more current. As they draw more current, they heat up.
This process continues until the transistor is destroyed.

It might be interesting to use an old germanium transistor in a well designed circuit and listen to it.
At my place of employment, we have a stash of old parts. In that stash are many old germanium transistors.
I'll build an amplifier stage and listen to it.
 
Because of better tubes?

Because tubes are better, IMO. Look at the nature of the parasitic capacitance dielectrics of each type of device. Vacuum is literally infinitely better, relatively speaking, than silicon or germanium that have K's which are comparable to those of electrolytic & tantalum capacitors (Retch, Vomit, Heave!). Solid state devices by their very nature have an entire class of nonlinearities that tubes lack. Attempts to use high feedback to minimize these nonlinearities most usually merely move their effects around subjectively.

Of course, I exaggerate and simplify the subjective results of the dielectric differences above, but tubes, with their own panoply of problems, do always have that irreducible advantage over silicon or germanium.
 
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