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-   -   Need some help planning a CHEAP PA setup! (https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pa-systems/337460-help-planning-cheap-pa-setup.html)

KaffiMann 4th May 2019 08:47 AM

Need some help planning a CHEAP PA setup!
 
Hello.

My brother in law in Bali asked me if I could help him out with a PA setup. Amps and other electronics are expensive and hard to get down there, easiest to get locally is probably low end car stereo stuff, so thinking of bringing lower priced PA gear in my bag.

I am a bit strapped for cash, but it should be possible. Thinking of some reasonably priced 12" like for instance the Fane 12-300 combined with maybe something along the lines of Faital 3FE25, because it would be possible to get quality sound out of it, and be a bit loud.

Aiming for a roughly 75cm tall * 45cm deep * 40 cm wide box because that is what he wants, and I can get at least some bass output to 30hz with the Fane 12".

Open for other driver options.

My biggest problem is AMPS! If I go for a 2 way setup I would REALLY like to have a 4 channel amp with DSP filters, but the cash thing is a bit difficult.

If I decide what the **** and get the Fane 15-300TC and just a Behringer NX1000D it would just fit my budget, but then I do not have room for anything else at all in my bag :(

I am stuck in planning phase but need to get things done real soon, to get the parts in time. Please help!

chris661 4th May 2019 09:05 AM

Firstly, I'd suggest you won't get 30Hz out of a 12" driver at PA levels without using a very very large cabinet. Think LABhorn as a minimum.
For a direct-radiating 12", flat-to-50Hz would be a reasonable goal, and that's for a good driver.

You need to set off with the usual design questions:

- How loud?
- How low?
- How big?
- What budget?

Chris

Sonce 4th May 2019 09:41 AM

Fane 12-250TC in vented box (preferably larger than 75cm * 45cm * 40 cm) and Behringer NX3000. DSP is not needed for this simple set-up, and NX3000 is more powerful and about the same price as NX1000D.

KaffiMann 4th May 2019 09:53 AM

1 Attachment(s)
It's not going to be huge SPL, the frame of reference for my brother in law is perhaps a bit schewed, since the only PA stuff he's ever heard is not very good quality.

I get 109db per box in halfspace at xmax for the Fane 12-300, ca 50 watt input. Down to 107db at 30hz. If I xo at ca 200hz there will be sort of a "party hump" from over 110db at 80 to 112db at 150hz when using a 4th order BW LP.
It's not set in stone, but this will give "good enough"sound for a decent party, and does not require expensive parts of any kind.

Budget is very limited around 1000 NOK in drivers per channel + maybe 2000 NOK in amps. So around 350Ģ, including taxes.

JMFahey 4th May 2019 03:18 PM

Why use the 3" Faital speaker at all? :confused:

Fane 12-250 TC is 10 dB more sensitive :eek: , stands 250W and reaches incredibly flat to almost 15 kHz.

Not sure why would you use a 3000W power amp to drive 2 x 250W speakers ... and that if you *forget* the puny inadequate 20W 91dB Faital that is :confused:

Also forget any mention of 30Hz.

Any reasonably portable cabinet will start dropping below 60/70 Hz and be "usable" down to 50Hz or so ... and thatīs a very good response for high efficiency PA speakers.

Your in law will be very happy with 2 such cabinets, full range, and driven by a power amp with limiters set to 250W per speaker, so it never ever clips.

KaffiMann 4th May 2019 04:07 PM

Fane 12-250TC does not have enough low end.

My in-law specifically asked for more bass, some years ago, I made them a speaker with W5-1611 SA 5" FR in a folded voigt pipe style box, it drops like a rock after 60hz, but they like it a lot, so much that he snapped the wires from the connector to the VC because of over excursion... Even after being warned repeatedly.
So I got some new W5-1611SAF drivers here that will also accompany me on the journey.

But after I got the drivers to fix the speakers, he humbly asked if it was possible to make some speakers with more bass, quote: "Need big bass!" and also: "Want big sound, like mini concert!"

I would like something smaller with better off axis response that can keep up with the 12-300 or equivalent (See image above, or whatever else is suggested that can give more per buck invested).
The Faital 3FE25 are on my shortlist, but they would have to be ordered from another source, which again would cost more in shipping...

Passive filters would be *really* expensive to implement, since we're talking maybe 300hz xo, and I would like the freedom a DSP solution gives.

I could bring a standard minidsp 2x4 (board only), and some TPA3250 amps, but I am a bit concerned about possible reliability/end users technical ability. Maybe I could have them make a wooden box to put them in or something...

The Behringer EPQ304 is a possible candidate for power amp, it has 4 channels, it's cheap, and together with something like the Behringer CX2310 V2 filter it would work, and possibly even be repairable should the worst happen.

I've never said anything about using 3kw of power.
Just some extra info:
There is NO option to use power to get more spl, I just asked, and they have one 10A breaker fuse with 220v for the entire household, frequent brownouts and dirty power grid in general.
So one 10A fuse is for lighting, a small side of the road cafe with a refridgerator and extra lights etc, another small shop with a smaller fridge, waterpump, a tiny water heater, and a laptop + whatever else a family household with a small baby needs. I don't know, but his father just told me they have 1300w power total. So not much!

Seeing as I am severly power limited, and the last few db's to cross into 120db territory demands a certain amount of "oomph", I thought it was better to forget about it and get whatever possible down low. The restricted power is the main factor here, and since the driver I suggested can do it, why not?

Maybe I should forget the whole thing and try to squeeze 2 x Fane 15-300TC + 1 x NX1000D in my bag, all these other things take space too, maybe it's better go the basic route.
The NX1000 is not a big power monster, only 2x160W in 8 ohm, I estimate the clean power should be maybe around 2x90w or so. And the DSP would make short work out of the weak spots of the FC152.

nigelwright7557 4th May 2019 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonce (https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pa-systems/337460-help-planning-cheap-pa-setup-post5780302.html#post5780302)
Fane 12-250TC in vented box (preferably larger than 75cm * 45cm * 40 cm) and Behringer NX3000. DSP is not needed for this simple set-up, and NX3000 is more powerful and about the same price as NX1000D.

I would have gone multiple Fane 15-300TC as it has a slightly better low end. No expensive crossovers to worry about with the full range drivers.
Simple box design too, all drivers the same size.
I wouldn't put more than two in a box if you need to move them much, maybe even just one ?

KaffiMann 4th May 2019 04:21 PM

Nigel, Yeah, I like them a lot! But to get several pairs of FC152 in my bag? Not possible.
Maybe I can squeeze in 1 pair of 15" absolute max!

KaffiMann 4th May 2019 05:18 PM

Allright... I think the FC152 + NX1000D might be feasible. And it would most certainly be easier than most other options.

I think it should be in a closed box, and the response looks a bit wiggly in a BR/TL type thing, but the BR/TL thingy just gives so much more output!
Closed goes 113db to 83hz, vented goes 113db to 55hz, within xmax, per channel. That is a major difference.
Vented also peaks out at 117db/80hz, while closed is at the 113db mark.

I really want to use slot ports, but they absolutely must be off the ground a bit (rats, very fat ones), so round ports a bit up are mandatory.

Sonce 4th May 2019 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaffiMann (https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pa-systems/337460-help-planning-cheap-pa-setup-post5780580.html#post5780580)
Fane 12-250TC does not have enough low end.

Fane 12-250TC has about the same low end cutoff as Fane 15-300TC in the same small box. So, 12-250TC has enough low end and is better suited to small boxes then 15-300TC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaffiMann (https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pa-systems/337460-help-planning-cheap-pa-setup-post5780580.html#post5780580)
Maybe I should forget the whole thing and try to squeeze 2 x Fane 15-300TC + 1 x NX1000D in my bag,

And the DSP would make short work out of the weak spots of the FC152.

DSP can not make better dispersion of loudspeaker at high frequencies. Forget about DSP amplifier, you need appropriate (and better) loudspeaker. But because you can not afford better loudspeaker, please accept the given advice. Ideally, 4 boxes with 12-250TC and Behringer NX3000 is all what you need - it will beat in every imaginable way the setup of 2 boxes with 15-300TC and Behringer NX1000D. Price would be about the same. Or, 2 boxes with 12-250TC will be cheaper than 2 boxes with 15-300TC.


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