Hi
Regarding Technics SU-3500 I was thinking to use some higher ripple low impedance Panasonic FMs instead of Nichicon KZ which have poor ripple for the voltage regulator .
Is about four 220uf caps connected to the voltage regulators .
Those voltage regulators are 2SD390A I posted a photo . Those 220UF caps are connected to TR501 506
Panasonic FM have very low ESR and the ripple is almost triple compared to Nichicon KZs. There is any chance that this ultra low ESR and huge ripple might cause the regulators to malfunction or ultra heat ?.
Regarding Technics SU-3500 I was thinking to use some higher ripple low impedance Panasonic FMs instead of Nichicon KZ which have poor ripple for the voltage regulator .
Is about four 220uf caps connected to the voltage regulators .
Those voltage regulators are 2SD390A I posted a photo . Those 220UF caps are connected to TR501 506
Panasonic FM have very low ESR and the ripple is almost triple compared to Nichicon KZs. There is any chance that this ultra low ESR and huge ripple might cause the regulators to malfunction or ultra heat ?.
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I was thinking that if FMs have huge ripple compared to KZs this might improve the bass and overall sound impact . Or this is not the case ?.
There's a basic empirical rule that works with capacitors: The bigger and heavier they are, the better at filtering low frequency and longer life .After seing and weighing them you might understand why the industry still sticks with the older FC against the FM even in high frequency smps!
"new" Panasonic FM vs FC caps?? | Headphone Reviews and Discussion - Head-Fi.org
Think for yourself!
"new" Panasonic FM vs FC caps?? | Headphone Reviews and Discussion - Head-Fi.org
Think for yourself!
Hi robert2017,
To add to dreamth's last comments, the higher the capacitance of a filter capacitor, the less well they perform at higher frequencies. Since charging the capacitor happens in a tiny fraction of the time it takes for a cycle, the charging is actually a series of high frequency pulses that occurs at twice the frequency of your mains. So for North America, your filter capacitors are hit with a brutal high frequency pulse of short duration, 120 times a second. So there are happy zones of capacitance that work better than some other larger ones. Research the term "conduction angle" as it pertains to power supply filter capacitors. Of course, the higher the capacitance is, the shorter the conduction angle for the diodes will be. Going the wrong direction there.
-Chris
Not the case in this instance. dreamth has hit on a basic question you need to consider. What is the real world impact of some capacitor specifications? If it were really that straight forward, we wouldn't need engineers to design this stuff as a computer could do it much more quickly.
To add to dreamth's last comments, the higher the capacitance of a filter capacitor, the less well they perform at higher frequencies. Since charging the capacitor happens in a tiny fraction of the time it takes for a cycle, the charging is actually a series of high frequency pulses that occurs at twice the frequency of your mains. So for North America, your filter capacitors are hit with a brutal high frequency pulse of short duration, 120 times a second. So there are happy zones of capacitance that work better than some other larger ones. Research the term "conduction angle" as it pertains to power supply filter capacitors. Of course, the higher the capacitance is, the shorter the conduction angle for the diodes will be. Going the wrong direction there.
-Chris
FC is an old standard electrolytic, any polymer cap or hybrid polymer cap is better for SMPS output and will live longer. So, no, your rule doesn't apply in all cases. Only across the exact same technology. I don't know what "industry" you are talking about, but no, I highly doubt Panasonic FC are in many newly designed SMPS.
A week ago I was recapping Yamaha A-700 mainly with nichicon KZs but the sound is not ok . Instead of let's say 6,3v I used 25v. Maybe I should wait more weeks for the caps to break in ?. My other amps sound very punchy .
I was also thinking to parallel smaller values to create bigger caps in order to improve the high freq ??.
Let's say instead of using a 330uf KZ I parallel an 100uf Cerafine combined with 100uf KZ and 100uf Panasonic FC . This can be hugely beneficial ??or is just a stupid idea ??
I was going to mention that just as I saw your post Mark. The max ripple spec is the ripple current that the cap can handle without failing. Has no effect at all on the actual ripple voltage on the supply.
Jan
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Hi robert2017,
My beliefs on the subject of break-in are that it is the observer that becomes use to the way it sounds and not the other way around.
It is absolutely true that higher voltage parts have better characteristics in general. I normally refuse to use any electrolytic capacitor with a breakdown voltage of less than 16 VDC. That is unless the size of the part is dictated so that I have no choice.
Replacement parts must always fit where the original part did. That means no long leads or giant components sticking out above everything else. WHen working on older equipment, the newer parts are normally smaller than they were earlier in time, so you can mount a higher voltage part in there and it will fit perfectly.
-Chris
My beliefs on the subject of break-in are that it is the observer that becomes use to the way it sounds and not the other way around.
It is absolutely true that higher voltage parts have better characteristics in general. I normally refuse to use any electrolytic capacitor with a breakdown voltage of less than 16 VDC. That is unless the size of the part is dictated so that I have no choice.
Replacement parts must always fit where the original part did. That means no long leads or giant components sticking out above everything else. WHen working on older equipment, the newer parts are normally smaller than they were earlier in time, so you can mount a higher voltage part in there and it will fit perfectly.
-Chris
It seems break in is very real . After I installed the caps on Yamaha A-700 the sound keeps changing from huge bass to normal bass and from clear highs to dark sound.Also the sound resolution keeps changing .
So no I don't become used the way it sounds.
Believed or not if I don't like an amp sound I never get used so I have 2 choices to sell the amp or try to mod in order to obtain the sound I want to hear.
Hi robert2017,
Well, just think of this a little. When your device is static, but your reference point is moving, you can't tell which is doing what. I agree that if you don't like the sound of something, this is less likely to change. No movement on anything. However, if something is close to what you like, you will drift and become used to it.
When I modify anything, I can see the before and after changes because I measure them. Under those conditions, observers do hear an immediate difference, but it doesn't shift over time. The observers are never told what I did, or even if I did anything at all. Keeps them honest and me on track.
Anyway, "break-in" is something that happens to the observer and not the equipment - unless you are talking about speakers because those do change with time.
Components do drift in characteristics, but this takes years and the changes are very small. After many years some components will fail to meet their tolerances, but that is the definition of broken and needs repair. As things age, they typically change for the worse, not for the better. Although, some change for the better is possible, but this would be rare. This from decades of direct observation.
-Chris
Well, just think of this a little. When your device is static, but your reference point is moving, you can't tell which is doing what. I agree that if you don't like the sound of something, this is less likely to change. No movement on anything. However, if something is close to what you like, you will drift and become used to it.
When I modify anything, I can see the before and after changes because I measure them. Under those conditions, observers do hear an immediate difference, but it doesn't shift over time. The observers are never told what I did, or even if I did anything at all. Keeps them honest and me on track.
Anyway, "break-in" is something that happens to the observer and not the equipment - unless you are talking about speakers because those do change with time.
Components do drift in characteristics, but this takes years and the changes are very small. After many years some components will fail to meet their tolerances, but that is the definition of broken and needs repair. As things age, they typically change for the worse, not for the better. Although, some change for the better is possible, but this would be rare. This from decades of direct observation.
-Chris
Some caps require a break in period in order to sound ok because those have an electrolyte that require forming so that conductive layer needs to be formed or perfected from charge discharge . Some caps don't require break in but others do
.I know this is 100% true and many experts and also electro engineers agree with this fact completely .
Reforming the electrodes happens very quickly. I do it with 40 year old electrolytics often enough, but I use a pair of current sources. Firing up a modern capacitor doesn't require any real time to reform - or they would burn out. Reforming takes energy and that is dissipated as heat.
Components are one thing I know fairly well. Capacitor reforming as you describe it just doesn't happen with any quality capacitor. You can sleep at night. I have a piece of expensive test equipment from HP (now Keysight) that measures all kinds of parameters. There isn't any important changes between a new capacitor and one that has been in service for a year. When I take a prototype apart, I sometimes check parts I might use again (for prototypes only). So I have some direct experience with this issue. Same for transistors, ICs and resistors. There are some expensive resistors that are reused.
Relax Robert, components are far more stable than you have been lead to believe.
-Chris
Components are one thing I know fairly well. Capacitor reforming as you describe it just doesn't happen with any quality capacitor. You can sleep at night. I have a piece of expensive test equipment from HP (now Keysight) that measures all kinds of parameters. There isn't any important changes between a new capacitor and one that has been in service for a year. When I take a prototype apart, I sometimes check parts I might use again (for prototypes only). So I have some direct experience with this issue. Same for transistors, ICs and resistors. There are some expensive resistors that are reused.
Relax Robert, components are far more stable than you have been lead to believe.
-Chris
Yes I think that if you apply full voltage can take minutes to reform but I usually reform the caps listening at low volume or letting the amp to play at low volume and this takes days to weeks .Now Yamaha A-700 shines again but probably will go dark again . KZs behave this way while forming inside amp .The sound keeps floating from shine detailed to dark blurred until the caps stabilizes . Time to buy a capacitor reformer .
Hi Robert,
Capacitors only deform when not used for a long period of time. You don't need full voltage either, just the normal working voltage in that circuit.
Can you imagine pulling each capacitor, reforming it, then reinstalling it?? That is a non-starter.
-Chris
Is that like a long stand by chance?
Capacitors only deform when not used for a long period of time. You don't need full voltage either, just the normal working voltage in that circuit.
Can you imagine pulling each capacitor, reforming it, then reinstalling it?? That is a non-starter.
-Chris
Hi Robert,
I can assure you that they are fully formed in the factory. 4 year old capacitors shouldn't have any problems unless used improperly. No, 4 years in use will not allow the capacitor to deform.
I have circuits I built in high school in the early 70's, and those parts seem to stand up. I tend to restore equipment ranging from the 80's down to the 20's. Some parts are bad from the 80's and some from the 20's are good. Those would be mica capacitors and some resistors. Electrolytic capacitors are often still good from equipment in the 1970's, but I change many because today's parts are so much better than what we had in the 1970's. You're talking about baby parts that haven't matured yet!
Without the proper equipment, you have zero idea of what you are imagining or not. You wouldn't be the first one to have to accept they were wrong about some things. As a technician, exposed top this stuff every day, some swallowing of pride occurs almost daily. There is so much to learn that it takes a lifetime to do, and if I live to be 200 I'll bet I would still be learning. New technicians are the most amusing to watch as their beliefs fall one by one. Working with this forces you to accept what is true over whatever idea you may have had. Call it continuing education.
-Chris
I can assure you that they are fully formed in the factory. 4 year old capacitors shouldn't have any problems unless used improperly. No, 4 years in use will not allow the capacitor to deform.
I have circuits I built in high school in the early 70's, and those parts seem to stand up. I tend to restore equipment ranging from the 80's down to the 20's. Some parts are bad from the 80's and some from the 20's are good. Those would be mica capacitors and some resistors. Electrolytic capacitors are often still good from equipment in the 1970's, but I change many because today's parts are so much better than what we had in the 1970's. You're talking about baby parts that haven't matured yet!
Without the proper equipment, you have zero idea of what you are imagining or not. You wouldn't be the first one to have to accept they were wrong about some things. As a technician, exposed top this stuff every day, some swallowing of pride occurs almost daily. There is so much to learn that it takes a lifetime to do, and if I live to be 200 I'll bet I would still be learning. New technicians are the most amusing to watch as their beliefs fall one by one. Working with this forces you to accept what is true over whatever idea you may have had. Call it continuing education.
-Chris
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