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gabdx 12th April 2019 12:28 AM

Which driver would you choose?
 
1 Attachment(s)
I entered a table with drivers parameters, unfortunately I cant enter the response but I rated the responses from the ones that can be used without corrections to the ones which are almost impossible to correct the response.

The idea is to select a driver for maximum dynamics, resolution and true frequency response for the midrange of a 3 way.

ICG 12th April 2019 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabdx (https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/336545-driver-choose-post5758192.html#post5758192)
The idea is to select a driver for maximum dynamics, resolution and true frequency response

-You can't select a driver for maximum dynamics if you don't know for which f-range it's going to be used.

-You can't select a driver for maximum dynamics if you don't know its distortion, you have to measure it.

-You can't select a driver for maximum dynamics if you don't know its power capabilities.

-You can't select a driver for maximum frequency response if you don't know ..the frequency response.. :rolleyes: - you have to measure it.

-You can't select a driver for maximum frequency response if you don't know the dispersion pattern or what it's used for.

-You can't select a driver for maximum resolution if you don't know the f-response, impulse response, distortion on low and high spl

-You can't select a driver for maximum frequency response if you have to use maximum dynamics because the great excurse limits greatly the f-band you can use it up to (that applies to the upper aswell as the lower end).

-You can't select a driver for maximum dynamic without knowing what enclosure type and size you can/want to use. Or the room size.

-You can't select a driver purely from the parameters.

-You can't select a driver without knowing its partners (unless it's a fullrange but it's probably not one since this is the multi-way forum).

gabdx 12th April 2019 01:42 AM

The woofer or sub is taking care of low end
All drivers specs have acceptable THDs
All drivers specs have good power ability from 30 watts to 300 watts, all acceptable due to sensitivity , 30 watts at 92 db and 100 watts at 88 is equivalents, so they all play acceptable to modern home standards, not for PA.

The Fq response I which I could put all the graphs, but I resumed to a simple description with drivers which don't need any XO corrections to those which cannot be corrected and will be not flat, in the middle there are those with just a small bump or dip which is easy to fix and those with 2 or 3 defects and those with very complicated to fix responses.

The partners are not a concern right now. Just the most critical sound from 100 hz to 2000hz , lets presume the bass is taken care off and a great tweeter can cover from 2khz.

(ps. as diys we have to choose at one point on parameters, review, kits etc., I have been in a room with all the B&W models from the low end to the 805D 804, 803, 802 and the PSB most expensive towers, I listened to each speaker with my reference materials, however this is not how you can do with DIY, get like 12 expensive speakers with their matching tweeter and woofers with best enclosures and 100 years of XO matching in anechoic chamber and then pick your poison to build... we have to look at parameters and make compromises like : active XO, complex passive XO, simple XO with ragged Fq, or just a bad speaker, and go to the next build!)

Just from the parameters...

ICG 12th April 2019 02:28 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by gabdx (https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/336545-driver-choose-post5758232.html#post5758232)
The woofer or sub is taking care of low end
All drivers specs have acceptable THDs
All drivers specs have good power ability from 30 watts to 300 watts, all acceptable due to sensitivity , 30 watts at 92 db and 100 watts at 88 is equivalents, so they all play acceptable to modern home standards, not for PA.

Well, that would not meet my idea of maximum dynamics. At all. And there you have it already, completely different standards. If I think about a speaker with maximum dynamic, I'd start at being capable of 110dB at least. Not that I often listen to that spl, rather the opposite but a maximum dynamic speaker has to be able to reproduce that spl and not cut of the peaks (because that happens already much earlier).

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabdx (https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/336545-driver-choose-post5758232.html#post5758232)
The Fq response I which I could put all the graphs, but I resumed to a simple description with drivers which don't need any XO corrections to those which cannot be corrected and will be not flat, in the middle there are those with just a small bump or dip which is easy to fix and those with 2 or 3 defects and those with very complicated to fix responses.

You cannot recognize how a driver sounds from the specs and data alone. Dips can only be 'fixed' by an complex active setup or DSP. You did not mention that you'd use one in the post before. But more importantly, you can neither fix the dispersion pattern nor the distortion levels with a DSP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabdx (https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/336545-driver-choose-post5758232.html#post5758232)
The partners are not a concern right now. Just the most critical sound from 100 hz to 2000hz , lets presume the bass is taken care off and a great tweeter can cover from 2khz.

Yes, they are of concern. You can't use a bass driver that's louder than the tweeter in a passive setup because you'd change (increase) the the Q-factor if you introduce serial resistors. Besides the fact that it gives you a noticable up to a quite ugly bump, a lot of resolution is lost that way.

To the human ear, 100Hz is still not critical, that starts one or one and a half octaves higher. For best dynamics, resolution and sound quality I would not use 100Hz XO and go slightly higher. Around 100Hz is a mark for the xo of sat and sub though. But you did not mention that either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabdx (https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/336545-driver-choose-post5758232.html#post5758232)
(ps. as diys we have to choose at one point on parameters, review, kits etc., I have been in a room with all the B&W models from the low end to the 805D 804, 803, 802 and the PSB most expensive towers, I listened to each speaker with my reference materials, however this is not how you can do with DIY, get like 12 expensive speakers with their matching tweeter and woofers with best enclosures and 100 years of XO matching in anechoic chamber and then pick your poison to build... we have to look at parameters and make compromises like : active XO, complex passive XO, simple XO with ragged Fq, or just a bad speaker, and go to the next build!)

Just from the parameters...

The B&W 805D is expensive but not a good speaker. Have you ever heard them? Or seen measurements? The price tag was never granting good sound quality.


https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/atta...1&d=1555035919

measurements from audio.com.pl

gabdx 12th April 2019 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICG (https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/336545-driver-choose-post5758253.html#post5758253)
Well, that would not meet my idea of maximum dynamics. At all. And there you have it already, completely different standards. If I think about a speaker with maximum dynamic, I'd start at being capable of 110dB at least. Not that I often listen to that spl, rather the opposite but a maximum dynamic speaker has to be able to reproduce that spl and not cut of the peaks (because that happens already much earlier).



You cannot recognize how a driver sounds from the specs and data alone. Dips can only be 'fixed' by an complex active setup or DSP. You did not mention that you'd use one in the post before. But more importantly, you can neither fix the dispersion pattern nor the distortion levels with a DSP.



Yes, they are of concern. You can't use a bass driver that's louder than the tweeter in a passive setup because you'd change (increase) the the Q-factor if you introduce serial resistors. Besides the fact that it gives you a noticable up to a quite ugly bump, a lot of resolution is lost that way.

To the human ear, 100Hz is still not critical, that starts one or one and a half octaves higher. For best dynamics, resolution and sound quality I would not use 100Hz XO and go slightly higher. Around 100Hz is a mark for the xo of sat and sub though. But you did not mention that either.



The B&W 805D is expensive but not a good speaker. Have you ever heard them? Or seen measurements? The price tag was never granting good sound quality.


https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/atta...1&d=1555035919

measurements from audio.com.pl

If you read my post : I have been in a room with all the B&W models from the low end to the 805D 804, 803, 802 and the PSB most expensive towers, I listened to each speaker with my reference materials,

I never saw the response curve of the 805D until now, thank you for that, this confirms what I heard, very vivid details, but it was not unpleasant, just too much to impress a first listener. But I have to say that it is a good speaker and sounds better than the lesser models from B&W, the 804, 803 and 802 adds bass, they are all good, the 804 is very reserved, the 803 more neutral and the 802 is very fun to listen to the bass which is very dry. I didn't listen to the 802 with the best amps, which were NAD.

nipper1 12th April 2019 01:25 PM

Take a close look at the SB Acoustics Satori line. I am using a MR16P-4 and really love it. I am using it almost fullrange (no filter on the low end at all) with a BW2 low-pass at 7400 Hz. OBVIOUSLY, most people would never use a 6 inch "midrange" driver that high up but it sounds like a fullrange driver so it's not as ridiculous as many might imagine it to be. Regardless, it will easily do your intended frequency band (I don't know about the maximum SPL). In fact, you might even consider the MW16P Satori which is a mid-bass driver for no higher than your crossover; the voice coil is longer so it will take way more power than the MR "midrange". For the money, the Satori line is very hard to beat (for high performance/relatively low cost)!

mbrennwa 12th April 2019 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabdx (https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/336545-driver-choose-post5758232.html#post5758232)
Just the most critical sound from 100 hz to 2000hz , lets presume the bass is taken care off and a great tweeter can cover from 2khz.

I would take a look at the B+C drivers (5" or 6.5") and Scan Speak (12/15/18cm size). I am a sucker for the Scan 8545 midwoofer.

jmproductions 13th April 2019 05:30 AM

I think maybe you are looking at drivers that tend to be more woofers than midwoofers, and since you don't need to play below 100hz, you could look at something more mid focused. Typically a driver that resonates below 50-60hz uses less controlled mass to produce LF. However if I'm forced to pick from your list without looking at FR graphs, I think the #9 Alnico is the most interesting. The high efficiency is indicative of a strong Bl/Mms ratio. The Xmax is a little low so you will need a strong high pass to limit the excursion but this driver should play the freq range you desire very accurately. It probably does not have a very flat FR but this is the trade off usually for cone control. In general you want: low inductance or you will see more high freq roll off, low Qes and high Qms for a more midrange driver. I agree the ScanSpeaks are great drivers and should be considered.

ICG 13th April 2019 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabdx (https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/336545-driver-choose-post5758270.html#post5758270)
If you read my post : I have been in a room with all the B&W models from the low end to the 805D 804, 803, 802 and the PSB most expensive towers, I listened to each speaker with my reference materials,

I asked if you've heard them because you made it sound like they would be some kind of goal to reach - which I found a bit ..surprising..

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabdx (https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/336545-driver-choose-post5758270.html#post5758270)
I never saw the response curve of the 805D until now, thank you for that, this confirms what I heard, very vivid details, but it was not unpleasant, just too much to impress a first listener. But I have to say that it is a good speaker and sounds better than the lesser models from B&W, the 804, 803 and 802 adds bass, they are all good, the 804 is very reserved, the 803 more neutral and the 802 is very fun to listen to the bass which is very dry. I didn't listen to the 802 with the best amps, which were NAD.

Well, a speaker has to perform on several criteria to be a long term good speaker and not just impress with some sensational effects because that becomes annoying or wearing pretty quickly. I've seen a lot of ppl were impressed by a short listening session and immediately buying speakers (among them B&W) and after a while they realized it's not the fidelity they really wanted. In the end they were frustrated and bought other speakers and the game repeats until they realize they need more criteria to be fulfilled to get 'their' speaker. The way you describe the B&W fleet reminds me a lot on that and the way you want to find the 'best' driver (via parameters and kinda vote) supports that pretty much unfortunately.

The problem is, that way you won't find it because you are looking at the wrong criteria. It's much better to look for a concept you like and/or for drivers match on your most important criteria. For me ie, it's mostly about realistic dynamics, room impression, resolution, homogeneity. Even if tonality isn't criteria #1 for me (dynamics is), a jump of 8dB in the response in less than an octave in the critical range of 2,5-4kHz poses a clean 'fail' to me.
Okay, I'm not the reference (and I wouldn't want that at all) and I don't want to convince you to follow others' preferences but you have to become sure about what you want and what your most important criteria are and where you're willing to take a compromise, ie size, price etc and where not (room, WAF, fullrange or multi-way, design, whatever, just examples). I'm sure, if you realize what your criteria are, what you most like and dislike in a speaker, at least the half of the drivers you've listed in the table would immediately fall off the list.

gabdx 13th April 2019 12:38 PM

ICG, you are reading my mind, my criteria is a good FQ response to suit my taste, but I need dynamics, details, maybe I can sacrifice dynamics because I have so many amplifiers within hands reach which can match the speakers.

JM likes more #9, however #5 has a slightly less difficult response, smaller and double cone mass, SAME specified suspension and magnet force, it loses sensitivity 2x less sensitive for a slightly better FQ response.

The #9 i never heard it, the #5 is similar to what they use in Pro-ac Resp D48 which is good to me: very realistic decay, attack is super.


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