Update 2-29-2018 - changed the design requirements to meet a better use case and better components & changed to a bi-amped design
Can we design a mobile 12" pa top with common parts, and maybe even use a ready to build cabinet like the knock down trap cabinets on PE, for less then an agreed on price point? $300?
My starting point is < 40 lbs, 2 way, 12" woofer. Compression HF driver with a WIDE horn of 100x40. This is an update to my original desire for super narrow+arrayable. My decision is based on my typical use which is mobile DJ where the focus is on the dance floor, and I'm usually 5' from it. This isn't an outdoor concert that's 1000 ft deep. At worst, it's in a bar that's 20 ft wide by 50 ft deep or outdoors, but my use case is still short throw with wide coverage, 100ft max. Works decent on its own, but but really made to be paired with subs, maybe a PAL12 or THAM15. Stackable horn-to-horn, 2 per side. Bi-amped, with external electronic crossover like the Behringer DCX2496. Capable of getting moderately loud. Not too hard to build in the garage. Some digging on parts Express and other sites says $250 will get you something better than all the plastic boxes selling for $599. But that's not the only goal. The other goal is that I can replace parts readily from Parts Express or Amazon. This of course means compromises, but I have lost faith in my plastic active speakers. They have and will continue to let me down I'm afraid, but a good rugged passive box with a nice shape and finish that sounds good, is easy to use and EQ, and will pound night after night.
Anyone up for a community project?
Edit:
Project goals are:
Unless specified these components are all from Parts Express.
This comes in at just over $200, but still needs a grill and some Duratex
Can we design a mobile 12" pa top with common parts, and maybe even use a ready to build cabinet like the knock down trap cabinets on PE, for less then an agreed on price point? $300?
My starting point is < 40 lbs, 2 way, 12" woofer. Compression HF driver with a WIDE horn of 100x40. This is an update to my original desire for super narrow+arrayable. My decision is based on my typical use which is mobile DJ where the focus is on the dance floor, and I'm usually 5' from it. This isn't an outdoor concert that's 1000 ft deep. At worst, it's in a bar that's 20 ft wide by 50 ft deep or outdoors, but my use case is still short throw with wide coverage, 100ft max. Works decent on its own, but but really made to be paired with subs, maybe a PAL12 or THAM15. Stackable horn-to-horn, 2 per side. Bi-amped, with external electronic crossover like the Behringer DCX2496. Capable of getting moderately loud. Not too hard to build in the garage. Some digging on parts Express and other sites says $250 will get you something better than all the plastic boxes selling for $599. But that's not the only goal. The other goal is that I can replace parts readily from Parts Express or Amazon. This of course means compromises, but I have lost faith in my plastic active speakers. They have and will continue to let me down I'm afraid, but a good rugged passive box with a nice shape and finish that sounds good, is easy to use and EQ, and will pound night after night.
Anyone up for a community project?
Edit:
Project goals are:
- Portable (< 40 lbs/cabinet)
- Readily available parts, nothing esoteric or hand built
- Less than $300/cabinet
- As good as, but preferably better than all but maybe the highest end plasticabs
Unless specified these components are all from Parts Express.
Code:
Part # Description Price Quan Ext
295-032 Dayton Audio PA310-8 12" Pro Woofer $66.75 1 $66.75
270-406 Dayton Audio DT250P-8 1" Polyimide Compression Horn Driver $42.95 1 $42.95
245-324 PA Knock-Down Trapezoid Plywood Speaker Cabinet $69.00 1 $69.00
294-2912 PRV Audio WG23-25 1" 100 x 40 Waveguide $5.99 1 $5.99
262-348 Penn-Elcom M1504 ABS Dish Two Neutrik D or NL4MP $1.30 1 $1.30
262-824 Parts Express Plastic Pocket Speaker Cabinet Handle 4-Sided $3.97 2 $7.94
092-052 Neutrik NL4MP Speakon Connector 4 Pole Panel Mount $2.25 2 $4.50
260-773 Penn-Elcom F1633 Rubber Cabinet Foot 1.125" Dia. x 0.5" H $0.46 4 $1.84
245-013 Penn-Elcom M1551 Steel Speaker Mounting Top Hat $7.19 1 $7.19
Total: $207.46This comes in at just over $200, but still needs a grill and some Duratex
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What is the rest of your system, amps, crossover/DSP, subs, EQ ect.
Do you the proper amps to power multiple boxes.
Cabinets with 90X40horns will not really array well, they would need to be 60X40 or even a tighter horn to really start thinking about "arraying".
When you array do you mean 2 or 3 speakers just setting in row side by side all pointing straight ahead or in a curved arc to obtain wider coverage.
Something you do with 90X40 cabinets when you need more output is to stack then up with the cabinets oriented horn to horn, you will get better cabinet to cabinet coupling.
You need to think of ways not to blow up your speakers in the first place rather than how fast you can get replacement parts, yes you do need to keep spares on hand but if your blowing stuff on a regular basis something else is wrong.
Do you the proper amps to power multiple boxes.
Cabinets with 90X40horns will not really array well, they would need to be 60X40 or even a tighter horn to really start thinking about "arraying".
When you array do you mean 2 or 3 speakers just setting in row side by side all pointing straight ahead or in a curved arc to obtain wider coverage.
Something you do with 90X40 cabinets when you need more output is to stack then up with the cabinets oriented horn to horn, you will get better cabinet to cabinet coupling.
You need to think of ways not to blow up your speakers in the first place rather than how fast you can get replacement parts, yes you do need to keep spares on hand but if your blowing stuff on a regular basis something else is wrong.
Here's a first cut for a $300 12" 2-way PA cabinet:
Total: $300-ish
Code:
Parts Express Right Angle Steel Bar Speaker Cabinet Handle 262-820 2 $8.63 $17.26
Penn-Elcom D0604K Dish Two Neutrik D Black 3-1/2" x 5-1/8" 262-334 1 $4.77 $4.77
Neutrik NL2MP Speakon Connector 2 Pole Panel Mount 092-059 2 $1.99 $3.98
Selenium DH200E-E 1" Titanium Horn Driver 1-3/8"-18 TPI 264-225 1 $39.99 $39.99
Eminence Delta Pro-12A 12" Cast Frame Driver 290-510 1 $129.99 $129.99
Selenium HM17-25 1" Bi-Radial Horn 60x40 1-3/8"-18 TPI 264-308 1 $5.79 $5.79
Dayton Audio XO2W-2.5K 2-Way Speaker Crossover 2,500 Hz 260-142 1 $25.80 $25.80
PA Knock-Down Trapezoid Plywood Speaker Cabinet for 12" Driver 245-324 1 $69.00 $69.00Total: $300-ish
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I'm planning on using a Behringer DXC2496 or DRPA
Yes, going to run two behringer iNuke 3000's 1 top, 1 sub
Code:
Cabinets with 90X40horns will not really array well, they would need to be 60X40 or even a tighter horn to really start thinking about "arraying".
When you array do you mean 2 or 3 speakers just setting in row side by side all pointing straight ahead or in a curved arc to obtain wider coverage.
Something you do with 90X40 cabinets when you need more output is to stack then up with the cabinets oriented horn to horn, you will get better cabinet to cabinet coupling.Agreed. These are Alto TS215, which have quickly become notorious for have very poorly matched driver/amps, and they eat horns and woofers like candy, with only a few clipping led flashes per minute. I drove them into clipping because of lack of subs at an event i needed subs at. That's on me, but brought this issue forward.
Horizontally arraying wide-coverage, 2-way boxes (even traps) will get you a boatload of comb filtering. For an arced horizontal array, the most recent success story would be the Danley Synergy horn, and even they need some processing. You might consider going with a simple 2-way vertical stack, similar to the Ramsdell systems, to get your 3 box array per side.
Cuppa Joe Danley's where targeted at a different problem comb filtering between passbands and point source coherance the units where meant as stand alone boxes and some users tried to "array" them with the usual problems resulting but fear not they're on that trail now DANLEY INTRODUCES THE EXODUS SYSTEM! | Danley Sound Labs, Inc.
PA Tops
Hello All,
Some thoughts on what I see here:
The Dayton PA310 12" cannot be beat in the bang-for-the-buck department. Roughly equivalent performance to the Delta at 1/2 the price. Pretty smooth response as well. They make a 15" for like 12 bucks more if you want to go that route.
Ditto on the compression drivers. The DH200e are ok(I've used them) but the Daytons are similar in design to the B&C DE250, which is considered top of the line. The replacement diaphragms are super cheap if you smoke one.
The Behringer iNuke3000 is nowhere near strong enough to power these tops or any sub you are likely to use with them. The 6000 is more like it.
2.5k is a very high crossover for this setup, and the units you have selected don't have any padding for the CD, which you will need.
At the end of the day there is only so much you are going to get out of a set of 12" 2-ways, even with some compact subs. If you are blowing drivers in your current setup you might need something a little stronger.
In my experience the *cheapest* way to address this sort of problem is to buy a big honking amp and a pile of cheap *passive* 15" 2-way boxes, then you have a scaleable system for different sized gigs.
Regarding combing--frankly for this application I personally wouldn't worry about it. Some of the best PA systems I've ever heard (back in the day) were technically comb-filtering nightmares. Everyone is in a tizzy about it these days, and while it is an issue to consider, some of these other issues are more important when you're trying to keep the dance floor thumping IMHO.
Brett
Hello All,
Some thoughts on what I see here:
The Dayton PA310 12" cannot be beat in the bang-for-the-buck department. Roughly equivalent performance to the Delta at 1/2 the price. Pretty smooth response as well. They make a 15" for like 12 bucks more if you want to go that route.
Ditto on the compression drivers. The DH200e are ok(I've used them) but the Daytons are similar in design to the B&C DE250, which is considered top of the line. The replacement diaphragms are super cheap if you smoke one.
The Behringer iNuke3000 is nowhere near strong enough to power these tops or any sub you are likely to use with them. The 6000 is more like it.
2.5k is a very high crossover for this setup, and the units you have selected don't have any padding for the CD, which you will need.
At the end of the day there is only so much you are going to get out of a set of 12" 2-ways, even with some compact subs. If you are blowing drivers in your current setup you might need something a little stronger.
In my experience the *cheapest* way to address this sort of problem is to buy a big honking amp and a pile of cheap *passive* 15" 2-way boxes, then you have a scaleable system for different sized gigs.
Regarding combing--frankly for this application I personally wouldn't worry about it. Some of the best PA systems I've ever heard (back in the day) were technically comb-filtering nightmares. Everyone is in a tizzy about it these days, and while it is an issue to consider, some of these other issues are more important when you're trying to keep the dance floor thumping IMHO.
Brett
Danley advertises their SH50 (for instance) as arrayable; the argument is with them. Still, I'm sure that they'll sound better than arraying 3 of the typical 2-way club box with wide coverage HF horn. Such an array won't magically sound better than one per side.
Just as well, some of the worst PA systems I've ever heard were comb-filtering nightmares, especially in the HF. All they could do was EQ out the harsh bits & hope to have some vocal clarity left.
A trick that works for Dave Rat (Red Hot Chili Peppers) is to array 2 tops side-by-side, then run only drums & vocals thru one top, and everything else thru the other. Comb filtering is unnoticeable. Another trick with 2 tops is to invert the 2nd box & stack it on the 1st, so that the HF horns are closest together.
Just as well, some of the worst PA systems I've ever heard were comb-filtering nightmares, especially in the HF. All they could do was EQ out the harsh bits & hope to have some vocal clarity left.
A trick that works for Dave Rat (Red Hot Chili Peppers) is to array 2 tops side-by-side, then run only drums & vocals thru one top, and everything else thru the other. Comb filtering is unnoticeable. Another trick with 2 tops is to invert the 2nd box & stack it on the 1st, so that the HF horns are closest together.
It won't magically sound better but it will buy you a lot more headroom. The problem here isn't sound quality...it is headroom. In any case, with all due respect, why are you bringing up $4k apiece boxes when we are clearly on a beer budget here? I could tell the OP to go buy a set of Meyer CQ-1's and I'm sure everyone would love it, except he'd be broke.
Back to the OP--I was thinking about your issue and remembered we used to have the same problem with our installed systems in dance studios. They'd have it cranked up to 11 all day with these Community, EV, or JBL 15" 2-ways and eventually melt the coil or literally rip the cone apart. I ended up replacing the cheap, flimsy 15" out of the box with an Eminence. Never blew another one. Same thing with these 18" JBL Mpros that are everywhere. My buddy's production company used to rent those to local DJ's and they'd blow them up. He ended up slapping 18" Eminence Sigmas in them and it made an enormous difference in the failure rate. The point is the drivers they use in these low end boxes are usually pretty weak. I'm not sure about your specific boxes, but you may be able to retrofit off the shelf drivers into them, which would be the cheapest solution of all. Just be aware that some of these have weird proprietary drivers in them that won't swap out. I think the Mackie SRM450 is one of them.
FWIW,
Brett
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Exactly. Truly mobile DJs like me have already made a good many compromises, so comb filtering is probably on the lower end of my 99 problems. 😀
Since the shipping on the warranty was more than the replacement driver, I voided my warranty and cracked them open. Voice coil was welded in place, cone wouldn't budge. Magnet was tiny, the whole driver weighs 7lbs. I bought some $74 eminence 15" LF and they dropped right in and sound great. Used them this weekend over my brand new PAL12 sub I built from the subwoofer forum and had them crossed at 110Hz and everything sounded great.
Looking at the Dayton driver, it has an Fs of 39Hz which is a tad low, but maybe better suited in a system that might not always run subs. It has frequency response up to 4k, so definitely usable in this design!
Looking at the Dayton DT250P-8 1" Polyimide driver, it has decent power handling, and a response of 1,000-20,000 Hz, so should pair well with the Dayton woofer.
With this Dayton driver selection, it seems a better crossover point is in the 2k range, to give the 1" driver a bit more power handling. The woofers start getting directional at around 1k according to the spec sheet, but I think that's true of any 12" driver. Being usable up to 4k gives a bit of room there
Can you explain this a bit? What type of padding does a CD need in the crossover for power handling, directivity?
Nik
I just saw that myself! Here's an updated list based on jarvissound's feedback:
PA Knock-Down Trapezoid Plywood Speaker Cabinet for 12" Driver 245-324 1 $69.00 $69.00
Parts Express Right Angle Steel Bar Speaker Cabinet Handle 262-820 2 $8.63 $17.26
Dayton Audio PA310-8 12" Pro Woofer 295-032 1 $53.00 $53.00
Dayton Audio DT250P-8 1" Polyimide Compression Horn Driver 1-3/8"-18 TPI 8 Ohm 270-406 1 $39.90 $39.90
Dayton Audio XO2W-2K 2-Way Speaker Crossover 2,000 Hz 260-140 1 $29.50 $29.50
Penn-Elcom D0949Z Dish One Neutrik D PennBrite 4" x 4-3/8" 262-038 1 $3.71 $3.71
Penn-Elcom D0946G Gasket For 4" x 4-3/8" Dish 262-049 1 $0.58 $0.58
Penn-Elcom F1687 Rubber Cabinet Foot 1.5" Dia. x 0.375" H 260-777 4 $0.74 $2.96
Amphenol SP-2-MD Speaker Connector 2 Pole "D" Flange Panel Mount Black 092-0160 1 $1.52 $1.52
Goldwood GT-300PB 1" Horn 1-3/8"-18 TPI 270-092 1 $6.29 $6.29
Total: $223, That's a great deal for what should equal or rival the performance of many portable 12" cabs, IMO.
I switched to the Goldwood horn since it's a CD horn with a 90x40 pattern, and the idea of stacking 2 cabs tweeter to tweeter vertically will probably work as long as they are properly secured so as to not be top-heavy.
if your doing rave style gigs i'd rachet strap down your stacks. and even then you can't count on event security stopping people from climbing on them to do an impromptu dance number!
passive padding or active x-over.... i'd go active and adjust the gain to the horn a resistive pad eats watts and produces heat inside the cab.
passive padding or active x-over.... i'd go active and adjust the gain to the horn a resistive pad eats watts and produces heat inside the cab.
Another thing you might consider, now that you have "fixed" your Alto's, is building a set of 15" boxes with 1.5" or 2" CD's. That will put you in another world in terms of output, and if you use the right 15" you can thump hard with or without subs, and if you're using subs you can thump really hard because they can work in tandem. I think this might be a better option in terms of output for dollar invested.
Brett
Ah padding for sensitivity matching, I totally spaced on that and was thinking something related to padding the crossover point for some filtering caused by the CD horn. Mentioning CD was what threw me. Yes, these will absolutely need a pad to get the sensitivity matched up for sure. With the Dayton woofer and horn, there's a 9 db difference (105 - 96.1) in sensitivity, so a 6 to 9 db L pad is necessary
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