I bought a pair of these ("buyout", $10 each) Tang Band W3-881SI on a whim, based on inspiration from another thread. My original plan was to make very small, sealed boxes for them, for near-field listening.
Then I started looking at Cyburgs-Needle and TABAQ, and became more interested in seeing what this little, cheap 3" driver could do in a large(r), ported enclosure.
Neither Cyburgs-Needle nor TABAQ fit my height criteria of 42" (they will go in my bedroom, and they need to be tall enough to reach over our bed (which is quite high).
Anyway, I opened up WinISD and plugged in all the specs that I could find for the W3-881SI. I then designed a (12mm plywood) box 42" h x 4.5" w x 6.5" d (exterior dimensions) for a total interior volume of 13.3 litres, with a tuning of 52.5hz (port 1.5" dia. x 2.5" L). (see photo)
It looks very much like Cyburgs-Needle, but taller (See photo), and it is not optimized for Quarter Wave or transmission line, AFAIK (ie. I did not use M. King's worksheets, as I have no idea how to. So this is just a simple bass-reflex design. If there is any QW or TL going on, it is by accident
The total cost of this project was $77, tax and shipping ($26) included. I am extremely satisfied with the result. i still need to sand them down and stain them, etc.
The best part; they sound fantastic! Not as refined as my microTowers of course, and they reach their SPL limit sooner than the microTowers, but I never expected them to compete with the mTs anyway. I also did not expect them to sound as good as they do, with as much bass as they have. I am truly amazed what can be done with a single 3" driver. I've been walking around with a stupid grin for the last couple of hours. My wife is getting annoyed.
Then I started looking at Cyburgs-Needle and TABAQ, and became more interested in seeing what this little, cheap 3" driver could do in a large(r), ported enclosure.
Neither Cyburgs-Needle nor TABAQ fit my height criteria of 42" (they will go in my bedroom, and they need to be tall enough to reach over our bed (which is quite high).
Anyway, I opened up WinISD and plugged in all the specs that I could find for the W3-881SI. I then designed a (12mm plywood) box 42" h x 4.5" w x 6.5" d (exterior dimensions) for a total interior volume of 13.3 litres, with a tuning of 52.5hz (port 1.5" dia. x 2.5" L). (see photo)
It looks very much like Cyburgs-Needle, but taller (See photo), and it is not optimized for Quarter Wave or transmission line, AFAIK (ie. I did not use M. King's worksheets, as I have no idea how to. So this is just a simple bass-reflex design. If there is any QW or TL going on, it is by accident
The total cost of this project was $77, tax and shipping ($26) included. I am extremely satisfied with the result. i still need to sand them down and stain them, etc.
The best part; they sound fantastic! Not as refined as my microTowers of course, and they reach their SPL limit sooner than the microTowers, but I never expected them to compete with the mTs anyway. I also did not expect them to sound as good as they do, with as much bass as they have. I am truly amazed what can be done with a single 3" driver. I've been walking around with a stupid grin for the last couple of hours. My wife is getting annoyed.
Attachments
...If there is any QW or TL going on, it is by accident
There is.
The BR tuning is much lower than i would go.
dave
But is it lower than you would go with QW/TL ?
It seemed to look good to me in WinISD as a simple BR, not far off the 16 litre suggested by the app (which was tuned to 49hz).
Either way, I love the way they sound and they are glued shut, so no going back
Interesting perspective on radio station news. I find that there is too much compression on both AM and FM radio. Are you speaking of XM/Sirius? I refuse to pay for radio
I am also far more interested in human singing than speaking, so one of the first tests I always do is listening to various male and female vocal tracks. For female vocalists, I go with anything from the "Best Audiophile Voices" collection. For male, I always give the honours to Leonard Cohen (the young, the mature, and "the seasoned" to see how the speakers do with all of them) and sometimes Michael Buble, Don Henley/Eagles, Dave Matthews, etc.
Then I move onto cello and violin concertos, then over to prog rock, reggae/dub, then I throw in some Nini Rosso really loud, Proclaimers, Pogues, Japanese Pop, ... etc.
So far, these little speakers have done an unbelievably good job with all of it.
I am also far more interested in human singing than speaking, so one of the first tests I always do is listening to various male and female vocal tracks. For female vocalists, I go with anything from the "Best Audiophile Voices" collection. For male, I always give the honours to Leonard Cohen (the young, the mature, and "the seasoned" to see how the speakers do with all of them) and sometimes Michael Buble, Don Henley/Eagles, Dave Matthews, etc.
Then I move onto cello and violin concertos, then over to prog rock, reggae/dub, then I throw in some Nini Rosso really loud, Proclaimers, Pogues, Japanese Pop, ... etc.
So far, these little speakers have done an unbelievably good job with all of it.
Last edited:
Thank you, Scott. I plan to sand them and apply the same stain as I have on the bottom portion of the microTowers, plus a couple coats of satin. I also really want to find some black scews for the drivers (neither Home Depot nor Rona carry little black wood screws ?!!)
Ooh that'll look nice in that finish. Although I do really like the light look and with a nice satin finish could look plenty appealing, depending on what's already in the room.
I got my black screws from Parts Express but I ordered them when I ordered a bunch of other stuff so it wasn't a big deal. HD didn't have any black screws? Do you have Fastenal up there? They have them and are usually all over the place.
Scott
BTW I love the art over the fireplace. Danish Modern design?
I got my black screws from Parts Express but I ordered them when I ordered a bunch of other stuff so it wasn't a big deal. HD didn't have any black screws? Do you have Fastenal up there? They have them and are usually all over the place.
Scott
BTW I love the art over the fireplace. Danish Modern design?
Last edited:
I like the natural colour of the wood as well, but everything in our bedroom is black iron and dark wood...
I am not sure if we have Fastenal or not, I'll have to check. There are a couple other hardware stores and lumber stores I can check, and a surplus electronics type store as well. If not, I'll just include a bunch in my next PE order.
I am not sure about the origin of the art piece. It was on sale ($30 marked down from over $120) at Pier One Imports because it had a bunch of paint scratched off one of the circles (a hack saw fixed that problem
). We love it too
I like the natural colour of the wood as well, but everything in our bedroom is black iron and dark wood...
I am not sure if we have Fastenal or not, I'll have to check. There are a couple other hardware stores and lumber stores I can check, and a surplus electronics type store as well. If not, I'll just include a bunch in my next PE order.
I am not sure about the origin of the art piece. It was on sale ($30 marked down from over $120) at Pier One Imports because it had a bunch of paint scratched off one of the circles (a hack saw fixed that problem
Oh if those are the colors you already have then the darker would definitely look better.
That's a fantastic deal on that piece! Sure looks mid-century, very cool.
There's a Fastenal in your city:
Store Code: BCKAM
Hours: Monday - Friday 7:00am - 5:00pm
Phone: (250) 314-0018
Fax: (250) 314-0218
1365A Dalhousie Drive
Kamloops, BC V2C 5P6
They usually stock lots of stuff locally or can get it pretty quick. Very reasonably priced too. They cater mainly to businesses/contractors/etc but they'll sell to individuals as well.
Scott
and further thoughts...
chris: perhaps, it depends if kids are in play (as in the domicile) or not
cogitech: I'm no expert, but try tuning a 1/2 octave higher (as Dave suggested that the tuning is too low). As I don't have any box programs on my iMac, I can't do it myself, but if the resonance is at or around 75Hz, then I would try slightly above that, say maybe even 85Hz...
regarding the volume of the enclosures, I'd stick with a proven design, and make the enclosure contained within the envelope of a "micro-Tower" or similar. Fill the rest with crushed glass or sterile sand if you like.
chris: perhaps, it depends if kids are in play (as in the domicile) or not
cogitech: I'm no expert, but try tuning a 1/2 octave higher (as Dave suggested that the tuning is too low). As I don't have any box programs on my iMac, I can't do it myself, but if the resonance is at or around 75Hz, then I would try slightly above that, say maybe even 85Hz...
regarding the volume of the enclosures, I'd stick with a proven design, and make the enclosure contained within the envelope of a "micro-Tower" or similar. Fill the rest with crushed glass or sterile sand if you like.
Excellent. You saved me some googling. Thanks! I will check them out for sure.
That drivers Qts is way to high for it to be 'happy' in a ported box but there are things you can do to optimise its performance.
Usually you don't need or don't want to heavily stuff reflex boxes, but in this case however it will work significantly to your advantage by lowering the large peak introduced by the port. As Dave says the lower tuning frequency is a little too low, but given the driver and your simulation you didn't have much choice.
This driver will produce next to no bass when put into a sealed cabinet, which is really what its Qts would make it better suited to. Indeed with a Qts that high, it'd be well at home on an open baffle or in a situation where the rear of the driver has no box around it, such as the parcel shelf behind some cars backseats. Of course it would need crossing to a bass driver at something like 300hz.
You can however faff about and get a decent response out of it in a ported enclosure and this could be somewhat how TB intend you to use it.
Given your ~13 box, if you stuff it full, tuning it to around 80hz will give you something like this...
...which considering you've probably already stuffed your box quite a bit, probably isn't too far away from what you're using now, albeit with a high tuning frequency.
It is however really suited to a smaller box. If you whack it into a 4l box, again heavily stuffed, and tune to around 85 hz you get this...
You can see however, that even with 1 watt/2.83volts, that the drivers xmax is exceeded in the blink of an eye, the smaller box does help to control this a little bit more. Of course you get lower extension in the bigger box but the maximum SPL is lower.
Of course none of this is taking into account any influence that your really tall and narrow cabinet could be having, although I would miagine that any TL action would be negated somewhat by the position of the port. Where is your port located?
Usually you don't need or don't want to heavily stuff reflex boxes, but in this case however it will work significantly to your advantage by lowering the large peak introduced by the port. As Dave says the lower tuning frequency is a little too low, but given the driver and your simulation you didn't have much choice.
This driver will produce next to no bass when put into a sealed cabinet, which is really what its Qts would make it better suited to. Indeed with a Qts that high, it'd be well at home on an open baffle or in a situation where the rear of the driver has no box around it, such as the parcel shelf behind some cars backseats. Of course it would need crossing to a bass driver at something like 300hz.
You can however faff about and get a decent response out of it in a ported enclosure and this could be somewhat how TB intend you to use it.
Given your ~13 box, if you stuff it full, tuning it to around 80hz will give you something like this...
...which considering you've probably already stuffed your box quite a bit, probably isn't too far away from what you're using now, albeit with a high tuning frequency.
It is however really suited to a smaller box. If you whack it into a 4l box, again heavily stuffed, and tune to around 85 hz you get this...
You can see however, that even with 1 watt/2.83volts, that the drivers xmax is exceeded in the blink of an eye, the smaller box does help to control this a little bit more. Of course you get lower extension in the bigger box but the maximum SPL is lower.
Of course none of this is taking into account any influence that your really tall and narrow cabinet could be having, although I would miagine that any TL action would be negated somewhat by the position of the port. Where is your port located?
Attachments
Hi Stew,
The boxes are glued up solid, so no changes can be made. This is not the end of the world because I am very pleased with the way they sound. But just out of curiousity, what is so objectionable about the box and tuning that is shown on page 1? There's a bit of a wave there, but it only deviates a dB or two in either direction and then hits an F3 of 46hz. I think this is pretty good for a driver with an Fs of 106hz. I think one thing to consider is the incredibly high Qts of these drivers. As Bjorn states in his TABAQ PDF:
"The Tang Band drivers have a relatively high Fs and very high Qts. The high Qts means the roll off is more gentle than a low Qts driver, and it is therefore possible to design a quarter wave with useful output well below Fs."
Granted, Bjorn was designing a true Quarter Wave TL from the ground up, and I was just throwing together a cheap, easy BR for sh!ts n' giggles, but I think the Qts of 0.85 helps this oversized, low-tuned BR sound better than it really should. I suspect that the tall, thin design leads to some accidental QW and/or TL action (confirmed by Dave) which I admittedly don't understand.
Perhaps someone out there with King's worksheets (and knowledge of how to use them) could show me just what I have done here.
That drivers Qts is way to high for it to be 'happy' in a ported box but there are things you can do to optimise its performance.
Usually you don't need or don't want to heavily stuff reflex boxes, but in this case however it will work significantly to your advantage by lowering the large peak introduced by the port. As Dave says the lower tuning frequency is a little too low, but given the driver and your simulation you didn't have much choice.
This driver will produce next to no bass when put into a sealed cabinet, which is really what its Qts would make it better suited to. Indeed with a Qts that high, it'd be well at home on an open baffle or in a situation where the rear of the driver has no box around it, such as the parcel shelf behind some cars backseats. Of course it would need crossing to a bass driver at something like 300hz.
You can however faff about and get a decent response out of it in a ported enclosure and this could be somewhat how TB intend you to use it.
Given your ~13 box, if you stuff it full, tuning it to around 80hz will give you something like this...
...which considering you've probably already stuffed your box quite a bit, probably isn't too far away from what you're using now, albeit with a high tuning frequency.
It is however really suited to a smaller box. If you whack it into a 4l box, again heavily stuffed, and tune to around 85 hz you get this...
You can see however, that even with 1 watt/2.83volts, that the drivers xmax is exceeded in the blink of an eye, the smaller box does help to control this a little bit more. Of course you get lower extension in the bigger box but the maximum SPL is lower.
Of course none of this is taking into account any influence that your really tall and narrow cabinet could be having, although I would miagine that any TL action would be negated somewhat by the position of the port. Where is your port located?
Hello again 5th!
The boxes are not completely stuffed, but very heavily so. I lined all interior surfaces except for the front panel and one side with 2" fibreglass home insulation. Initial testing with less insulation resulted in anemic bass response, so I just kept lining more and more sq. inches until I had the sound I wanted. The result is that there is as much insulation as there is air in the enclosure.
I suspect there must be some TL action happening here, as accidental as it is, because I suspect these sound far better than you guys are imagining.
I should say that I have pulled my 156hz and 220hz sliders down about 2.5dB and pushed my 77hz slider up about 3dB. At moderate SPL (73dB-ish) I can hear/feel everything from cymbals to the lowest notes on a 4-string bass.
The port is located approximately 4 or 5 inches from the base plate (IIRC).
Note: I am certain that I have driven these little buggers beyond Xmax a few times already, but in their final home (the bedroom or office) they will never come close to that.
Last edited:
I don't think anyone is trying to say that they sound bad, just that there might be better ways of using the driver.
As it is impossible to simulate any TL loading with standard vented box designers, if you could get something sorted out so that you could measure the impedance of the loudspeakers, it would assist greatly in pinpointing what tuning frequency you've actually arrived at.
As it is impossible to simulate any TL loading with standard vented box designers, if you could get something sorted out so that you could measure the impedance of the loudspeakers, it would assist greatly in pinpointing what tuning frequency you've actually arrived at.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.