Hi all. That's my first post here, so be nice please.
I won an auction on e-pay for a pair of 12" Visaton
now i need to put them into some nice shaped boxes...
i wish on a good performance from around 35Hz to 20KHz (if it can go lower, i surely won't moan).
I'm not worried about WAF, i live alone in a tiny
High SPL are not needed, but they're always welcome.
The tiny room is 3,5 x 5,5 metres x 2,60 tall.
Last weekend i went to an audio convention (if that's the right word) and had the chance to listen at different systems.
I was very impressed by two Systems: one with "Avantgarde Solo" and the other with two set from "Horn Manufaktur"
the models were these two:
A90 - diffusori a tromba audiophile
A100 - diffusori a tromba audiophile
As you know, the Avantgarde has a bass reflex on it's back and uses a specifically designed built-in amplifier, with a moulded frequency responce, so this is not possible for me to build
The other two speakers are backloaded horns, but they use their own drivers.
Do you think it's possible doing something similar with the 12" Visaton?
I like the Dallas 2 design a lot, but they're for 8".
Is there a nice folded horn to accomodate a 12" driver? any suggestions?
I would also consider Onken as second choice, but i don't know much about them. Bass reflex is simply not my cup of tea.
Thanks in advance.
I won an auction on e-pay for a pair of 12" Visaton
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
now i need to put them into some nice shaped boxes...
i wish on a good performance from around 35Hz to 20KHz (if it can go lower, i surely won't moan).
I'm not worried about WAF, i live alone in a tiny
High SPL are not needed, but they're always welcome.
The tiny room is 3,5 x 5,5 metres x 2,60 tall.
Last weekend i went to an audio convention (if that's the right word) and had the chance to listen at different systems.
I was very impressed by two Systems: one with "Avantgarde Solo" and the other with two set from "Horn Manufaktur"
the models were these two:
A90 - diffusori a tromba audiophile
A100 - diffusori a tromba audiophile
As you know, the Avantgarde has a bass reflex on it's back and uses a specifically designed built-in amplifier, with a moulded frequency responce, so this is not possible for me to build
The other two speakers are backloaded horns, but they use their own drivers.
Do you think it's possible doing something similar with the 12" Visaton?
I like the Dallas 2 design a lot, but they're for 8".
Is there a nice folded horn to accomodate a 12" driver? any suggestions?
I would also consider Onken as second choice, but i don't know much about them. Bass reflex is simply not my cup of tea.
Thanks in advance.
With a Qts that high, open baffle might be something to look into
Oh no, so i bought the wrong stuff...
There is something unconvincing (to me) about open baffles...
and, if not said before, i prefere avoiding the bass reflex boxes. i just don't like them too much and wish to try something different.
If a "classic" backloaded horn is not a good thing with these, what about a "vott-style" or even a "tannoy wannabe" onken enclousure.
The problem is i don't know much about both.
If the high frequencies won't be convincing, i will play with a supertweeter, just to add some fun and learn something new.
Any suggestions on something to make them sound good?
Hmm... Qts like that could be used for a largish sealed box but with a 6.4 ft^3 Vas it would be a substantially largish box. You might be able to go aperiodic. On the other hand since you were thinking horns then a big box is apparently not a deal breaker.
Hear is another thought. Maybe you can try a transmission line. The Vas again will probably rule out really small but maybe...
What bothers you about OB? That Q is actually on the bottom end of what I consider appropriate for FR OB but the fairly low fs probably makes up for it to some degree.
Hear is another thought. Maybe you can try a transmission line. The Vas again will probably rule out really small but maybe...
What bothers you about OB? That Q is actually on the bottom end of what I consider appropriate for FR OB but the fairly low fs probably makes up for it to some degree.
Greets!
For my records, which model Visaton is this?
Anyway, getting ~flat down to 35 Hz with a 40 Hz Fs, relatively high Vas, Qts driver = huge, like ~540 L for an Onken, which BTW is a bass reflex.
BLHs are designed to load the BW below the driver's mass corner (~2*Fs/Qes), so it wants a horn that only loads below ~95 Hz, i.e. your room isn't big enough for two horns that start with a throat area the size of a 15" driver. Even a relatively 'small' TL is 340+ L.
Really, to get a theoretically good performance out of them in a relatively small cab (< Vas) requires a well damped bass reflex, but it will have a relatively high F3.
GM
thanks for the replies.
Don't know if it's a good driver or not... i just bought it to start experimenting this stuff. I paid 70euro for the pair, shipping included. nothing so painful.
Anyway, i've discovered last night the sigle PA on the box.
Maybe this thing is not going to sound any magic, but my initial thoughts were to find a good enclousure, taste it and then see if it's worth getting a great driver.
If you think a onken can be used with good results, can you put me in the direction of the design? does exists a calculator to draw the litres needed and things?
should i completely discard the idea of a BLH?
Visaton FR31NG 8ohm.
Don't know if it's a good driver or not... i just bought it to start experimenting this stuff. I paid 70euro for the pair, shipping included. nothing so painful.
Forgot to say: on the box it's wrote f^3-15KHz, so i may add up a supertweeter in the future. (or change the whole thing)
Do you consider the onken a good idea? it really temptes me, because if i like it, i could think to get a 12" coax tannoy for the future, or something more hifi.
I have the suspect that they sound "light". i'd like that pounchy feel out from a kick drum... i've only heard a OB in my life, it was lovely, but nothing special (to my ears).
Anyway, i've discovered last night the sigle PA on the box.
Maybe this thing is not going to sound any magic, but my initial thoughts were to find a good enclousure, taste it and then see if it's worth getting a great driver.
If you think a onken can be used with good results, can you put me in the direction of the design? does exists a calculator to draw the litres needed and things?
should i completely discard the idea of a BLH?
You're welcome!
Again, a BLH, Onken, or similar would be huge/expensive in materials to make, so for this driver it's not worth it IME and ATM I can't think of a Tannoy or similar model that requires such a huge cab, so an excessive amount of EQ would be required to 'fill' it up, probably overdriving it well beyond Xmax if called upon to reproduce wide dynamic range source material and you have a signal chain to take advantage of it.
WRT OB, you're right, until a driver's Qts is ~0.71 it takes a huge baffle to go low with any authority assuming some decent room gain down low and up to a ~1.4 Qts to shrink it down to a semi-large box baffle width, so with 0.68 Qts it will probably do OK if the baffle's large enough and the room has some decent room gain. And by 'big', I mean up to a ~6 ft wide baffle setting on, and perpendicular to, the floor per channel depending on the room's gain curve. FWIW, most folks stop at ~3-4 ft and EQ the difference if they don't have a 'sub'/woofer system.
That, or you can make the widest baffles you can afford and use a pot to dial in the amount of series resistance required to flatten out its response, then replace with a fixed non-inductive power resistor of sufficient current carrying capacity.
In the end though, when it comes to box loading, IME the vented alignments that the pioneers of audio decreed as 'optimum' are the best overall since they provide good 'slam' with a highly damped LF to protect the driver down to Fs similar to a sealed alignment, but the trade-off typically is a relatively high F3, rolled off bass if not corner loaded and requires knowing the signal chain's total output impedance, which if a typical SS amp and good size wire gauge is used it can be ignored.
GM
Just noticed that you said you want kick drum punch. Since punch is more a midbass phenomenon I am inclined to think that a smaller than "optimal" sealed box or aperiodic box might indeed give you what you need. Why not knock up a quick sealed box with a volume about equal to Vas and give it a work out. Add blocks of wood or something to the inside to reduce the volume and see how small you can go and still get acceptable results.
Then you can drill a matrix of holes in the back and staple some fiberglass or poly fill over the hole to make it leaky. If that improves things you can continue reducing the volume again.
Who knows you might be able to salvage your investment.
Then you can drill a matrix of holes in the back and staple some fiberglass or poly fill over the hole to make it leaky. If that improves things you can continue reducing the volume again.
Who knows you might be able to salvage your investment.
Hi Superfunk,
I built a kind of "Tannoy distributed port/Mini Onken/Onken" for 10" Tannoy DC's which works very well.
Cabinets 110 cm tall :http://www.true2art.com/onktan.htm
Fonken/MiniOnken (to show build principal): Meet the Fonkens
Google for the Onken Calculator and use it to check if your drivers are suitable for the Onken style enclosure.
I built a kind of "Tannoy distributed port/Mini Onken/Onken" for 10" Tannoy DC's which works very well.
Cabinets 110 cm tall :http://www.true2art.com/onktan.htm
Fonken/MiniOnken (to show build principal): Meet the Fonkens
Google for the Onken Calculator and use it to check if your drivers are suitable for the Onken style enclosure.
fwiw the original Karlson K15 played a "fun perspective" if not totally accurate drum with ancient EV SP15 alnico drivers with high qts and fs on Nick Cave's "Murder Ballads" - there was quite a bit of subjective punch and good vocals. I like the 40 sq.in. vent for starters with any driver. The 12" Karlson enclosure is tiny and really plays better with 8" driver in some cases. GM could suggest a short tapered line for your driver as alternative to reflex.
SP15 Q's (I didn't bother to take Vas)
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/755/sp15bunit1qts1cg8.jpg
also it might be worth making a cheap test open baffle for your speaker - I had a P-Audio neodymium
15" coax with reflex-box parameters play just fine subjectively on a small open baffle - that surprised me
and it did cello, bowed bass and rap bass alright - but its different than your light cone fullrange
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/7809/sn15c2x3ob1.gif
SP15 Q's (I didn't bother to take Vas)
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/755/sp15bunit1qts1cg8.jpg
also it might be worth making a cheap test open baffle for your speaker - I had a P-Audio neodymium
15" coax with reflex-box parameters play just fine subjectively on a small open baffle - that surprised me
and it did cello, bowed bass and rap bass alright - but its different than your light cone fullrange
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/7809/sn15c2x3ob1.gif
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