Hello people worldwide! I am just about to start building a Kit One from Audio Note. I want to give up with the kit's enclosed PCB's altogether, because a crude point-to-point wiring will improve the sound, and Kondo's amps are apparently built this way. Does anyone know whether I must keep the original physical layout of components (for noise or electromagnetic reasons), or does anyone suggest any possible improvements regarding construction techniques? I don't want to change the circuit, but I may for example try to avoid vibration, float all transformers, etc. I am interested in physical layout changes. Your opinions are welcome!
Well,it depends on how much skilled you are in p-t-p wiring.
The idea on modifying an AN Kit One is OK,but bear in mind that the existent layout was choosen (more or less....) by paying atention of all the criteria you're already aware.
For sure,making a p-t-p wiring means a new set of passive components,since the ends of the resistors/capacitors already soldered on the PCB are cut short.
Instead of speculating on how to float transformers,etc,try the best possible improvement on Kit One:BUILD YOURSELF ANOTHER CHASSIS from 6~10 thick aluminium.The existent (original) chassis is,maybe,the worst component of the Kit.
The idea on modifying an AN Kit One is OK,but bear in mind that the existent layout was choosen (more or less....) by paying atention of all the criteria you're already aware.
For sure,making a p-t-p wiring means a new set of passive components,since the ends of the resistors/capacitors already soldered on the PCB are cut short.
Instead of speculating on how to float transformers,etc,try the best possible improvement on Kit One:BUILD YOURSELF ANOTHER CHASSIS from 6~10 thick aluminium.The existent (original) chassis is,maybe,the worst component of the Kit.
Dear Le Basseur,
Many thanks for your helpful answer and tips.
I am sorry that I took some time to reply – I have been out for long.
I tell you that I am not at all skilled in p-t-p wiring (first time, in fact), and so I wonder if there would exist any ‘secrets’ concerning it (soldering, etc.) that would differ much from the traditional technique, because I may not be aware of those. How should a good p-t-p wiring be carried out? I guess the new layout can be made to be not much different from the traditional one, or can’t it? I know I must avoid right angles between components, as this is maybe a universal criterion. Due to the fact that the PCB itself imposes physical layout constraints because of its tracing, we certainly have more freedom when we go p-t-p.
Coincidentally, I did build a different chassis already, but I only cared about the material – I used copper, and it was not feasible then to have had it made thick. Of course the consideration here was electromagnetic, but I did not think about vibration. Yours is a good idea, but unfortunately it is over now. Do you think I should reinforce the chassis internally by using another material? What I can do for vibration purposes is to float the transformer physically (not electrically !) on springs and damp resonance. Sometimes it seems to me it might be easier to try to absorb vibration (partially) as well as possible instead of trying to eliminate it completely by sheer rigidity and ruggedness. (The latter concept usually doesn’t work as well as intended, in my experience)
I may also route all tube heater wiring away from vital audio circuits, avoiding contamination problems. I may keep passive components close to the copper chassis. I may use centralized earthing in star-like fashion.
Any ideas? What do you think about these suggestions?
Hoping to hear your comments.
Thanks.
Many thanks for your helpful answer and tips.
I am sorry that I took some time to reply – I have been out for long.
I tell you that I am not at all skilled in p-t-p wiring (first time, in fact), and so I wonder if there would exist any ‘secrets’ concerning it (soldering, etc.) that would differ much from the traditional technique, because I may not be aware of those. How should a good p-t-p wiring be carried out? I guess the new layout can be made to be not much different from the traditional one, or can’t it? I know I must avoid right angles between components, as this is maybe a universal criterion. Due to the fact that the PCB itself imposes physical layout constraints because of its tracing, we certainly have more freedom when we go p-t-p.
Coincidentally, I did build a different chassis already, but I only cared about the material – I used copper, and it was not feasible then to have had it made thick. Of course the consideration here was electromagnetic, but I did not think about vibration. Yours is a good idea, but unfortunately it is over now. Do you think I should reinforce the chassis internally by using another material? What I can do for vibration purposes is to float the transformer physically (not electrically !) on springs and damp resonance. Sometimes it seems to me it might be easier to try to absorb vibration (partially) as well as possible instead of trying to eliminate it completely by sheer rigidity and ruggedness. (The latter concept usually doesn’t work as well as intended, in my experience)
I may also route all tube heater wiring away from vital audio circuits, avoiding contamination problems. I may keep passive components close to the copper chassis. I may use centralized earthing in star-like fashion.
Any ideas? What do you think about these suggestions?
Hoping to hear your comments.
Thanks.
Point to point is hard
If I understand you correctly, you have an unused PCB, and components to fit it. The whole point of a PCB is that it allows you to design a good layout that is repeatable. However, in these days of autorouters, it is possible that a given PCB layout may not be optimum. Against this is the question of whether you can do a better job on your first attempt at point to point wiring.
If you want to do this as a learning exercise, then, by all means, go for point to point. If the amplifier has to work, use the PCB. Perhaps, as a halfway house, you could use the PCB in such a way that it can be easily removed (and replaced), then experiment with point to point.
I use both methods. (Often in the same amplifier.)
Right angles between components reduce capacitance, and are a good thing. Theoretically, point to point gives more freedom because you can use three dimensions instead of two. In practice, whether your components are made for PCB mounting, or not, has more influence.
Heater wiring is always best done hardwired.
If I understand you correctly, you have an unused PCB, and components to fit it. The whole point of a PCB is that it allows you to design a good layout that is repeatable. However, in these days of autorouters, it is possible that a given PCB layout may not be optimum. Against this is the question of whether you can do a better job on your first attempt at point to point wiring.
If you want to do this as a learning exercise, then, by all means, go for point to point. If the amplifier has to work, use the PCB. Perhaps, as a halfway house, you could use the PCB in such a way that it can be easily removed (and replaced), then experiment with point to point.
I use both methods. (Often in the same amplifier.)
Right angles between components reduce capacitance, and are a good thing. Theoretically, point to point gives more freedom because you can use three dimensions instead of two. In practice, whether your components are made for PCB mounting, or not, has more influence.
Heater wiring is always best done hardwired.
P2P
Hi,
Sorry to disagree, I find P2P actually very easy to work with...once you get the hang of it.
One of the advantaage of the technique is that you can change layout 'till you have exactly what you want.
Having experience is of course a bonus but we all have to start somewhere.
I've been defending this technique before, especially for DIY, for it sounds better when done right and it's alot easier to repair/upgrade than PCBs.
Indeed, and best kept separate from the signal carrying leads.
Here are some items you need for P2P:
Soldertags of various lenghts.
Solderlugs for earthing purposes.
Stand-offs for the soldertags.
Horizontal mounting clamps for PSU caps (if they're clamp mount devices).
Some easily plied metalsheet and a drill and punch for the sockets.
I've no idea wether RS is selling in Bresil but they carry all you may possibly need for this and more.
Cheers,
Hi,
Sorry to disagree, I find P2P actually very easy to work with...once you get the hang of it.
One of the advantaage of the technique is that you can change layout 'till you have exactly what you want.
Having experience is of course a bonus but we all have to start somewhere.
I've been defending this technique before, especially for DIY, for it sounds better when done right and it's alot easier to repair/upgrade than PCBs.
Indeed, and best kept separate from the signal carrying leads.
Here are some items you need for P2P:
Soldertags of various lenghts.
Solderlugs for earthing purposes.
Stand-offs for the soldertags.
Horizontal mounting clamps for PSU caps (if they're clamp mount devices).
Some easily plied metalsheet and a drill and punch for the sockets.
I've no idea wether RS is selling in Bresil but they carry all you may possibly need for this and more.
Cheers,
Attachments
CAPS
Hi,
Those are silverfoil caps made by Silvertone (I think the name was), they ceased production a while ago or so I've been told.
I think our friend Peter Daniel picked up the remaining stock from Partsconnexion.
Peter likes them a lot from what I read and so do I.
Maybe you can still find some in the U.K. and if you do I'd appreciate if you let us know.
Cheers,
Hi,
Those are silverfoil caps made by Silvertone (I think the name was), they ceased production a while ago or so I've been told.
I think our friend Peter Daniel picked up the remaining stock from Partsconnexion.
Peter likes them a lot from what I read and so do I.
Maybe you can still find some in the U.K. and if you do I'd appreciate if you let us know.
Cheers,
A ROOM WITH A VIEW...
Hi,
A better pic of what P2P usually looks like:
BTW, since you're a Paulista...I know of some nice sources for tubes right down in Sao Paolo.
An RCA tube manual was given to me for free when visiting that part of the city, no kidding.
Cheers,
P.S.The picture is a Croft Super Micro after undergoing some surgeory.
Hi,
A better pic of what P2P usually looks like:
BTW, since you're a Paulista...I know of some nice sources for tubes right down in Sao Paolo.
An RCA tube manual was given to me for free when visiting that part of the city, no kidding.
Cheers,
P.S.The picture is a Croft Super Micro after undergoing some surgeory.
Attachments
PAULISTAS...
Hi,
Stayed in the hotel most of the time in Sao....I didn't want to be mugged...
Look for the part of the city where all the electronic shops are.
I can get details but for that I'd really need to dig into the company archives, I visited companies in Sao P and in Rio, after that I flew to Santiago de Chile...and back to the girls in Rio.
Anyway, testosterone aside I'll browse through the files and if lucky you may get some detail by Tuesday.
Ciao,
Hi,
Stayed in the hotel most of the time in Sao....I didn't want to be mugged...
Look for the part of the city where all the electronic shops are.
I can get details but for that I'd really need to dig into the company archives, I visited companies in Sao P and in Rio, after that I flew to Santiago de Chile...and back to the girls in Rio.
Anyway, testosterone aside I'll browse through the files and if lucky you may get some detail by Tuesday.
Ciao,
My compliments for all your p-t-p constructions!
Let me ask you all one last question - it is not clear to me which differences make a given component suitable for use in either
p-t-p wiring or PCB applications. Is it the part's physical size alone or does it have to do with say, the part's electromagnetic radiation fields characteristic around itself or yet its hum pickup characteristics?
The tube outlet address in São Paulo must be Santa Ifigenia, the electronics district in town. Is it so?
And, by the way, people who come here usually find out it is a good place to spare their testosterone...
Cheers,
Wram
Let me ask you all one last question - it is not clear to me which differences make a given component suitable for use in either
p-t-p wiring or PCB applications. Is it the part's physical size alone or does it have to do with say, the part's electromagnetic radiation fields characteristic around itself or yet its hum pickup characteristics?
The tube outlet address in São Paulo must be Santa Ifigenia, the electronics district in town. Is it so?
And, by the way, people who come here usually find out it is a good place to spare their testosterone...
Cheers,
Wram
CAFE DO BRESIL.
Hi,
Yes, that was it.
If I find more details about the companies I visited, I'll let you know.
Well, let me tell you I never got bored...
Hope you're not thinking I am going to make a habit out of contradicting you, EC8010....
Actually those caps can be fitted easily, the trick is to use solid core hook- up wire.
Some semi-conductors are a bit harder to deal with though.
Cheers,
Hi,
Yes, that was it.
If I find more details about the companies I visited, I'll let you know.
Well, let me tell you I never got bored...
Hope you're not thinking I am going to make a habit out of contradicting you, EC8010....
Actually those caps can be fitted easily, the trick is to use solid core hook- up wire.
Some semi-conductors are a bit harder to deal with though.
Cheers,
I don't mind being contradicted...
Perhaps I should have made myself clearer. To my mind, the reason for point to point wiring is to eliminate dodgy insulators (PCBS, etc) and minimise the number of soldered joints. PCBs inevitable increase the number of joints, and add a dodgy dielectric, but can allow a very good (and repeatable) layout. I've recently used the Soviet Teflons in point to point wiring, so hook-up wire was inevitable...
Perhaps I should have made myself clearer. To my mind, the reason for point to point wiring is to eliminate dodgy insulators (PCBS, etc) and minimise the number of soldered joints. PCBs inevitable increase the number of joints, and add a dodgy dielectric, but can allow a very good (and repeatable) layout. I've recently used the Soviet Teflons in point to point wiring, so hook-up wire was inevitable...
WASSUP?
Hi,
There's more to it than just that factor, Elso.
Any circuit I built so far just sounds beter, more open, more real, more like life music when wired p2p.
Come to think of it the dielectric used in all but the ceramic solder tags is inferiour to PCB...
Clever starearthing on the layout may help too...Is it the smallish solder traces on PCB?
Dunno, years ago we used to bridge the soldertracks on a Musical Fidelity A1 and it sure sounded better that way too.
Some things hi-fi are really hard to explain, I think.
One thing I learned though, I threw out the reasoning and replaced it with listening keeping in mind that someone somehow may come up with actual proof for what we hear...
Some of it has been proven, most of it is still waiting to be proven though
I only notice that, as years go by, more and more of the experiments we did way back than do get accepted athough not always proven.
It would be very naive to believe that the industry is trying to push audio, people like our members are though.
All would probably agree that it takes them at least 10 years to catch up with us...that's a pretty normal cycle.
Sorry about the long rant, and no, I don't expect the industry to revert to P2P or wirewrapping, no matter what I say.
Cheers,
Hi,
There's more to it than just that factor, Elso.
Any circuit I built so far just sounds beter, more open, more real, more like life music when wired p2p.
Come to think of it the dielectric used in all but the ceramic solder tags is inferiour to PCB...
Clever starearthing on the layout may help too...Is it the smallish solder traces on PCB?
Dunno, years ago we used to bridge the soldertracks on a Musical Fidelity A1 and it sure sounded better that way too.
Some things hi-fi are really hard to explain, I think.
One thing I learned though, I threw out the reasoning and replaced it with listening keeping in mind that someone somehow may come up with actual proof for what we hear...
Some of it has been proven, most of it is still waiting to be proven though
I only notice that, as years go by, more and more of the experiments we did way back than do get accepted athough not always proven.
It would be very naive to believe that the industry is trying to push audio, people like our members are though.
All would probably agree that it takes them at least 10 years to catch up with us...that's a pretty normal cycle.
Sorry about the long rant, and no, I don't expect the industry to revert to P2P or wirewrapping, no matter what I say.
Cheers,
Re: WASSUP?
Hi Frank,
Interesting reply!
For me the endresult, that is the sound, is most important.
All my prototypes are p2p wired, Jim Williams of LT style. I do not hear any difference bteween a p2p wired prototype and a neat PCB. (I use wide traces)
Jadis and VTL f.a. use p2p wiring in there tubed poweramps.
Jadis does a neat job, VTL is a big mess.
The PCB has the advantage of reprocebility and zero wiring mistakes, though I even manage to make some even there.
p2p does not have a groundplane, which is a disadvantage...
fdegrove said:Hi,
There's more to it than just that factor, Elso.
Any circuit I built so far just sounds beter, more open, more real, more like life music when wired p2p.
Come to think of it the dielectric used in all but the ceramic solder tags is inferiour to PCB...
Clever starearthing on the layout may help too...Is it the smallish solder traces on PCB?
Dunno, years ago we used to bridge the soldertracks on a Musical Fidelity A1 and it sure sounded better that way too.
Some things hi-fi are really hard to explain, I think.
One thing I learned though, I threw out the reasoning and replaced it with listening keeping in mind that someone somehow may come up with actual proof for what we hear...
Some of it has been proven, most of it is still waiting to be proven though
I only notice that, as years go by, more and more of the experiments we did way back than do get accepted athough not always proven.
It would be very naive to believe that the industry is trying to push audio, people like our members are though.
All would probably agree that it takes them at least 10 years to catch up with us...that's a pretty normal cycle.
Sorry about the long rant, and no, I don't expect the industry to revert to P2P or wirewrapping, no matter what I say.
Cheers,
Hi Frank,
Interesting reply!
For me the endresult, that is the sound, is most important.
All my prototypes are p2p wired, Jim Williams of LT style. I do not hear any difference bteween a p2p wired prototype and a neat PCB. (I use wide traces)
Jadis and VTL f.a. use p2p wiring in there tubed poweramps.
Jadis does a neat job, VTL is a big mess.
The PCB has the advantage of reprocebility and zero wiring mistakes, though I even manage to make some even there.
p2p does not have a groundplane, which is a disadvantage...
ANTS AT WORK...
Hi,
Sure, there might just be a handful of manufacturers sticking with P2P, and Jadis and VTL are not one of those.
It's labour intensive etc., but than this DIY, not industrial design.
Given a choice from a custumer POV, I'd have a listen first and as said before I usually end up with better results going for P2P as opposed to PCB.
Anyways, this has been dicussed before here,
Hi,
Sure, there might just be a handful of manufacturers sticking with P2P, and Jadis and VTL are not one of those.
It's labour intensive etc., but than this DIY, not industrial design.
Given a choice from a custumer POV, I'd have a listen first and as said before I usually end up with better results going for P2P as opposed to PCB.
Anyways, this has been dicussed before here,
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