Yeah Holmer, like me! I used to be tall and thin with some 'snap' too but nowadays …
Also, I sometimes find it hard to ignore some of the hidden but accumulated biases (?) absorbed over the years - now, as everyone knowns, and it's very true, that polished satin black panels always sound better too!
I must admit, I was really taken by the look of that new CD player by Gryphon - no price mentioned, naturally.
Yes Duncan, If only life was so simple, eh!
And the "main show" in the US just keeps getting better!
Also, I sometimes find it hard to ignore some of the hidden but accumulated biases (?) absorbed over the years - now, as everyone knowns, and it's very true, that polished satin black panels always sound better too!
I must admit, I was really taken by the look of that new CD player by Gryphon - no price mentioned, naturally.
Yes Duncan, If only life was so simple, eh!
And the "main show" in the US just keeps getting better!
Hello Everyone,
Kemet gotten back to me with regards to the ESR questions I have on the slit-foil 10,000uF 63V (ALC10S1103DH), see below:
Max ESR: 62mOhms @100Hz, 20⁰C
Typical ESR: 26mOhms @100Hz, 20⁰C
Rated ripple current: 5.15Arms@100Hz, 85⁰C
I would say the ESR looks nice but not the ripple current.
I think the Kemet ALS30 is much much better but cost more, for the same 10,000uF 63V the ESR is 17mOhm and ripple 11Arms.
Kemet gotten back to me with regards to the ESR questions I have on the slit-foil 10,000uF 63V (ALC10S1103DH), see below:
Max ESR: 62mOhms @100Hz, 20⁰C
Typical ESR: 26mOhms @100Hz, 20⁰C
Rated ripple current: 5.15Arms@100Hz, 85⁰C
I would say the ESR looks nice but not the ripple current.
I think the Kemet ALS30 is much much better but cost more, for the same 10,000uF 63V the ESR is 17mOhm and ripple 11Arms.
That also makes me cautious, sounds more like "only for less demanding applications like audio" to me.
On the other side, importance of ESR is overestimated in audio. The voltage ripple from capacitance is 20-50x higher that that caused by ESR drop. At 5A, a 10.000µF drops 4V in 8ms between cycles, but only 0.125V from 25mR of ESR. This is not to say cheapo caps are OK, because low ESR means less heat and more ripple current and usually better quality, just like the 105C rating should. This is another example, 1000h at 105C is NOT better than 32.000h at 85C - you better read the whole datasheet.
Regarding audio tests, I do not think they must be DOUBLE blind. Just give them the remote to switch channels at will, and later ask if there was a difference. If yes, which sounded better? Quite simple, like Trump or Biden - who sound better?
On the other side, importance of ESR is overestimated in audio. The voltage ripple from capacitance is 20-50x higher that that caused by ESR drop. At 5A, a 10.000µF drops 4V in 8ms between cycles, but only 0.125V from 25mR of ESR. This is not to say cheapo caps are OK, because low ESR means less heat and more ripple current and usually better quality, just like the 105C rating should. This is another example, 1000h at 105C is NOT better than 32.000h at 85C - you better read the whole datasheet.
Regarding audio tests, I do not think they must be DOUBLE blind. Just give them the remote to switch channels at will, and later ask if there was a difference. If yes, which sounded better? Quite simple, like Trump or Biden - who sound better?
I use 2 ALS70A363MF100 36,000uF 100V in the PSU for my SE MOSFET amp...
https://www.mouser.ca/datasheet/2/212/KEM_A4075_ALS70_71-1775017.pdf
And I use the ALP22A103DF100 for speaker coupling. 26000 hour 85C cap. Sounds really good to me.
https://www.mouser.ca/datasheet/2/212/KEM_A4046_ALP_T22_23-1101143.pdf
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To the original poster, if it helps to know, I found BHC slit foil caps in the highly regarded Crimson 645 monoblock amplifiers. A friend owns them, we're going to re-cap with the Kemet/BHC slit foils now. Glad we can still get them.
Much of their effort in these amps was power supply related; for example they have a toroid per voltage rail (2 toroids in each monoblock amp).
I assume the PSU effort is a large part of why they sound as good as they do. Coming from a decades long Naim/Linn background myself, I know how they compare to Naim quite well.
What I'd like to know is, how do 4T compare audibly to slit foil. Good luck finding that real info, I assume
Can probably find a few p-ssing matches among the experts who haven't listened though
T
Much of their effort in these amps was power supply related; for example they have a toroid per voltage rail (2 toroids in each monoblock amp).
I assume the PSU effort is a large part of why they sound as good as they do. Coming from a decades long Naim/Linn background myself, I know how they compare to Naim quite well.
What I'd like to know is, how do 4T compare audibly to slit foil. Good luck finding that real info, I assume
Can probably find a few p-ssing matches among the experts who haven't listened though T
Thanks T for the update.
Do let me know how you find the Kemet slit foil after you re-cap.
I eventually went with Kemet ALS30 capacitors as the specs looks good (low ESR and high ripple), not cheap and cost approx 14GPB each.
They are good I must say.
I was looking for the Kemet T-Network but the have a minimum order of 1,008 pieces………..
Do let me know how you find the Kemet slit foil after you re-cap.
I eventually went with Kemet ALS30 capacitors as the specs looks good (low ESR and high ripple), not cheap and cost approx 14GPB each.
They are good I must say.
I was looking for the Kemet T-Network but the have a minimum order of 1,008 pieces………..
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Crimson 640E I should have said. Installed new replacement slit foil 10000uF 80v yesterday, the Kemet branded. The sound is absolutely scrumptous. But also upgraded the input cap (huge) and shielded the transformers (4x in this case) (huge). All told, incredible sound is now coming from these But how the slit foil compares to conventional, I can't say unfortunately. I do measure that the rail voltage increased from ~63v -> 67v now.
I do have some Mundorf 4T in the final PSU stage of my proto-amp but again, have not done an A/B comparison. Think I'll start using slit foil more as well, based on the 640E experience. T
But how the slit foil compares to conventional, I can't say unfortunately. I do measure that the rail voltage increased from ~63v -> 67v now. I do have some Mundorf 4T in the final PSU stage of my proto-amp but again, have not done an A/B comparison. Think I'll start using slit foil more as well, based on the 640E experience. T
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The space is really tight and you manage to have everything organised. How did you shield the transformers? Did you wrap some foils around the circumference?
A friend of mine swears by SuperTech slit foil sold by HifiCollective, Taiwanese but I heard they manufacture these under the license of DNM. I suppose Kemet's are similar technology if not the same, but the Kemet ones are bigger than the SuperTech for the same uF/v.
A friend of mine swears by SuperTech slit foil sold by HifiCollective, Taiwanese but I heard they manufacture these under the license of DNM. I suppose Kemet's are similar technology if not the same, but the Kemet ones are bigger than the SuperTech for the same uF/v.
Very tight indeed. The shielding barely fit, but it's in there. Each toroid is wrapped tight with 2 layers of high saturation magnetic shielding material. Similar to a band shield toroid that you can buy.
I plan to cover it all with a different layer of shield material. Expect the magnetic field probe to be mostly quiet by then too.
I had to chuckle at Crimson touting the magnetic induction rejecting design on their website, tee hee. Perhaps they typo'd and meant "magnetic field injecting" At the circled points in the picture I mean
I also did an experiment, reversed the field direction (polarity) in one toroid to see if I could create and detect mag field cancallation at the trouble points (the ends). There was in fact a slight reduction. But not nearly as much as the shielding.
The Kemet are exact same as the original BHC, I assume. I was a bit surprised to see rail voltage increase by 4v.
The sound is pretty amazing now, truly. Especially with the incredibly good input caps now (main cap w/ a bypass). It took me a long time to determine that recipe. But well worth it, if you want to break out of the "normal" sound zone. Which is determined largely by the passives in fact, IME. T
I plan to cover it all with a different layer of shield material. Expect the magnetic field probe to be mostly quiet by then too.
I had to chuckle at Crimson touting the magnetic induction rejecting design on their website, tee hee. Perhaps they typo'd and meant "magnetic field injecting"
At the circled points in the picture I mean I also did an experiment, reversed the field direction (polarity) in one toroid to see if I could create and detect mag field cancallation at the trouble points (the ends). There was in fact a slight reduction. But not nearly as much as the shielding.
The Kemet are exact same as the original BHC, I assume. I was a bit surprised to see rail voltage increase by 4v.
The sound is pretty amazing now, truly. Especially with the incredibly good input caps now (main cap w/ a bypass). It took me a long time to determine that recipe. But well worth it, if you want to break out of the "normal" sound zone. Which is determined largely by the passives in fact, IME. T
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https://www.tme.eu/Document/a34f57edc922afef43dc896d60f1b1a8/KEM_A4020_ALC10.pdf
Hi everyone.
I have found those complete details from Kemet about ALC10. Take a look at page 8.
Hi everyone.
I have found those complete details from Kemet about ALC10. Take a look at page 8.
I tried to use some of the slit foils from the folks who first marketed them - the name escapes me, in a power supply and they simply would not work. Not a power amplifier supply either. The advice for audio use only is there for a reason. There is an order of magnitude difference between audio signal and power supply ripple.
I am going to use them as output coupling caps in Zen Mod's SINGING BUSH amplifier where I think they will work very well.
Using some gigantic DUCATI PP 1500 uF ones first to have a basis of comparison.
Sure cannot beat the size of the KEMETs in comparison the large motorcycle battery sized DUCATIs.
I am going to use them as output coupling caps in Zen Mod's SINGING BUSH amplifier where I think they will work very well.
Using some gigantic DUCATI PP 1500 uF ones first to have a basis of comparison.
Sure cannot beat the size of the KEMETs in comparison the large motorcycle battery sized DUCATIs.
Hi Rick,
I'm a bit puzzled about the problems you have had with the Slit Foils (2T or 4T?) that didn't work in your power supply (any details, please?) because that's what they were designed to do nearly 40 years ago by Denis Morecroft and manufactured by the then BHC company in the UK, now part of Kemet
Apparently, from Kemet's information pages, that they are now unsuitable for power supply use, which is a bit strange IMO.
Denis Morecroft now has these caps made by the Taiwan company SuperTech nd labelled as Guided Current caps - curiously, Parts Connexion in Canada are offering a wide variety of these caps on their website too.
.
I'm a bit puzzled about the problems you have had with the Slit Foils (2T or 4T?) that didn't work in your power supply (any details, please?) because that's what they were designed to do nearly 40 years ago by Denis Morecroft and manufactured by the then BHC company in the UK, now part of Kemet
Apparently, from Kemet's information pages, that they are now unsuitable for power supply use, which is a bit strange IMO.
Denis Morecroft now has these caps made by the Taiwan company SuperTech nd labelled as Guided Current caps - curiously, Parts Connexion in Canada are offering a wide variety of these caps on their website too.
.
Hello Destiny Dent,
The link you shared is for ALC10, which is different from the ALC10S slit-foil caps. The datasheet for ALC10S is https://content.kemet.com/datasheets/KEM_A4029_ALC10S.pdf
I think they were SuperTech, a Taiwanese company. Hificollective still sells them but they do mention that these are now replaced by Kemet ALC10S (for the 2T).
I too, am surprise that you have problem as I have a friend uses the SuperTech 2Ts in his solid state amp power supply, and he rated them highly.
Hi James,
I'm not aware of Kemet is saying that they are now unsuitable for power supply use. The datasheet (https://content.kemet.com/datasheets/KEM_A4029_ALC10S.pdf) says they are design for power supply.
Can you provide the link so I can have a look?
I'm getting a bit nervous now since I have bought a few of the ALS10S and I have also asked someone to help to source for some of those 4Ts.........
I'm not sure now what particular part of the revised Kemet papers specifically said that the ALS10s caps weren't suitable for power supply use but it was published and I was totally confused by it sat that time and just accepted it as a revised publishing mistake that unfortunately does happens sometimes - quite a few other people mentioned it too.
Anyhow, it seems that this confusion has been cleared up now and the Kemet pages now state that specifically as your link shows ....
KEMET has produced the ALC10S slit foil capacitors
specifically for audio applications. Its patented design
eliminates circulating currents in the aluminium foils. This
spurious current flow on the capacitor plates is known to
occur but not apparent in most applications.
As far as I'm aware, these are the same manufactured caps that were available under the BHC logo so yes, they do indeed make excellent caps in power supplies and I'm sorry for creating any confusion.
Anyhow, it seems that this confusion has been cleared up now and the Kemet pages now state that specifically as your link shows ....
KEMET has produced the ALC10S slit foil capacitors
specifically for audio applications. Its patented design
eliminates circulating currents in the aluminium foils. This
spurious current flow on the capacitor plates is known to
occur but not apparent in most applications.
As far as I'm aware, these are the same manufactured caps that were available under the BHC logo so yes, they do indeed make excellent caps in power supplies and I'm sorry for creating any confusion.
Hello Everyone,
Just want to provide some updates; I got hold of some ALC10S (2T slit foil) 10,000uF 63v, and a couple of ALN20S (4T slit foil, Kemet calls them T-Power) 10,000uF 80v.
I acquired the ALC10S from Mouser at a decent price, and got the ALN20S from a friend in exchange for a pint.
The ALN20S are very rare and only place I know that sells them is HifiCollective at cost >20GBP; you can get from Mouser if you are ok with minimum quantity of 1,008 pieces.
To cut the long story short, I tried both with a 225VA RS Pro encapsulated toroidal, with 2X 25v secondary, powering a mid 90s solid state amp. 10,000uF per rail, and gives approx +/-35vdc at the end of the caps.
The ALC10S were good, and even better with some bypass film caps (for each rail I bypass with 1x47uF, 1x1uF, 1x10nF, all MKP). Bass was solid and full, and better than the Nicholson KG Type1 I’ve used.
The ALN20S were even better, bass was real solid and agile, background was darker than the ALC10S. Interestingly, I tried them with and without the same set of bypass film caps and can’t really say there were any difference.
I must say the ALN20S are really good, but they are big (40mmX75mm) and difficult to get. Having said that I’m sure there are other equally good if not better caps around but they may cost more. I’ve yet to compare them with the Nichicon LKG TypeIII, and probably not going to since I don’t have them.
Need to take note on how the 4T to be wired, for the +v rail, the +in to the rectifier and +out to the amp, and BOTH -in and -out MUST be connected to the 0v.
For the -v rail just do the other way around with BOTH +in and +out to the 0v.
Just want to provide some updates; I got hold of some ALC10S (2T slit foil) 10,000uF 63v, and a couple of ALN20S (4T slit foil, Kemet calls them T-Power) 10,000uF 80v.
I acquired the ALC10S from Mouser at a decent price, and got the ALN20S from a friend in exchange for a pint.
The ALN20S are very rare and only place I know that sells them is HifiCollective at cost >20GBP; you can get from Mouser if you are ok with minimum quantity of 1,008 pieces.
To cut the long story short, I tried both with a 225VA RS Pro encapsulated toroidal, with 2X 25v secondary, powering a mid 90s solid state amp. 10,000uF per rail, and gives approx +/-35vdc at the end of the caps.
The ALC10S were good, and even better with some bypass film caps (for each rail I bypass with 1x47uF, 1x1uF, 1x10nF, all MKP). Bass was solid and full, and better than the Nicholson KG Type1 I’ve used.
The ALN20S were even better, bass was real solid and agile, background was darker than the ALC10S. Interestingly, I tried them with and without the same set of bypass film caps and can’t really say there were any difference.
I must say the ALN20S are really good, but they are big (40mmX75mm) and difficult to get. Having said that I’m sure there are other equally good if not better caps around but they may cost more. I’ve yet to compare them with the Nichicon LKG TypeIII, and probably not going to since I don’t have them.
Need to take note on how the 4T to be wired, for the +v rail, the +in to the rectifier and +out to the amp, and BOTH -in and -out MUST be connected to the 0v.
For the -v rail just do the other way around with BOTH +in and +out to the 0v.
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With this thread inspiring me, I've just completed a Hafler XL280 power supply upgrade using the ALS10 in the 10000uF / 80V value, two per side. Since I was replacing the 30 year old original 7800uF caps I would think almost any cap would be an improvement but I'm experiencing much better bass extension and definition, and as I get more time on the amp it keeps improving. The XL280 is now my main 2 channel amp, until my DH500 gets upgraded. I'll probably use the ALS10 in that chassis too.
Kptseng,I noticed you mentioned the importance of linking the inputs and outputs of the Ov connection.I`ve been using these caps since they first appeared many years ago.The original wiring diagram supplied with these caps showed the Ov input/output connections separated like the pos.neg. connections which was later revised to linking them.Just doing this linking made a noticeable improvement to the sound;better articulation throughout the frequency range.
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Have not come across ALS10, I tried some ALS30 screw terminal type sometime back and they were very good too but expensive to get here.
Never tried other ways to connect and my first time using 4T caps. I searched on a few forums and many had advised that one of the 4 terminals is redundant and should not be connected.
I was not convinced so I search on Kemet’s website and managed to find the instructions. Strangely the datasheet itself was not clear on the connection, it was a separate document that I found somewhere on Kemet’s website that gave me what I needed.