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The "Reisert Bifilar Balun" for Power Supplies.
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Old 9th November 2019, 06:06 PM   #11
Max Headroom is offline Max Headroom  Australia
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Originally Posted by DF96 View Post
I always turn "toxic" where safety is concerned. That choke you show appears to have two winding sections. I cannot see whether it is bifilar wound or not. If it is, it may have unusually thick insulation if it comes from a reputable maker, or it may be Chinese junk - I cannot tell. The fact that someone has managed to engineer a safe CM choke using the correct enamelled wire does not mean that any enamelled wire can be used.
Nah, you are just naturally toxic and enjoy to be toxic as evidenced by the tone of your replies and commented on by other members behind the scenes....you might like to take this on board as constructive feedback.

Quote:
Fuses are meant to guard against accidents, not incompetence. At least, that is the practice in Europe.
More of your negative/toxic BS, fuses are guards against failures, be it device or wiring failures, even UL approved stuff fails and pops fuses, go figure.


Dan.
 
Old 9th November 2019, 06:25 PM   #12
Michael Bean is offline Michael Bean  United States
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Originally Posted by Max Headroom View Post
Nah, you are just naturally toxic and enjoy to be toxic as evidenced by the tone of your replies and commented on by other members behind the scenes....you might like to take this on board as constructive feedback.

More of your negative/toxic BS, fuses are guards against failures, be it device or wiring failures, even UL approved stuff fails and pops fuses, go figure.


Dan.
You've never been electrocuted, have you?

Mike
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Old 9th November 2019, 06:44 PM   #13
Max Headroom is offline Max Headroom  Australia
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Originally Posted by Michael Bean View Post
You've never been electrocuted, have you?
I have serviced audio/video/tv electronics for 35 years.
Please tell me all about short term electrocution and long term electrocution and at differing voltages and differing currents and differing durations.
Go right ahead, tell me what you found out ?.


Dan.
 
Old 9th November 2019, 06:51 PM   #14
voltwide is offline voltwide  Ireland
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Originally Posted by Max Headroom View Post
I have serviced audio/video/tv electronics for 35 years.
Please tell me all about short term electrocution and long term electrocution and at differing voltages and differing currents and differing durations.
Go right ahead, tell me what you found out ?.


Dan.
Referring to your first posting- I think you missed the point that the DIY-chokes were wound in a bifilar way, but the ones you presented were of the sectional winding type - which is in fact the common and safe technique for mains common mode chokes. That makes the difference we are talking about
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Last edited by voltwide; 9th November 2019 at 06:54 PM.
 
Old 9th November 2019, 07:18 PM   #15
Max Headroom is offline Max Headroom  Australia
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Originally Posted by voltwide View Post
Referring to your first posting- I think you missed the point that the DIY-chokes were wound in a bifilar way, but the ones you presented were of the sectional winding type - which is in fact the common and safe technique for mains common mode chokes. That makes the difference we are talking about
The point is that it really does not matter the winding/insulation method if an appropriate series fuse is incorporated in the primary circuit.
Voltage rating of standard enameled wire is around 600V, one has to be really careless in winding operation to cause two adjacent insulation faults that could cause primary SC fault.


Dan.
 
Old 9th November 2019, 07:43 PM   #16
voltwide is offline voltwide  Ireland
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Originally Posted by Max Headroom View Post
The point is that it really does not matter the winding/insulation method if an appropriate series fuse is incorporated in the primary circuit.
Voltage rating of standard enameled wire is around 600V, one has to be really careless in winding operation to cause two adjacent insulation faults that could cause primary SC fault.


Dan.
No, it does matter. Btw, standard enameled wire withstands 500Vdc. But mains filters have to withstand 230Vac plus much bigger transients as well. Whether you like this or not. And for that reason you will find no commercially cm-chokes with bifilar wound standard magnetic wire.
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Old 9th November 2019, 09:01 PM   #17
Michael Bean is offline Michael Bean  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Headroom View Post
I have serviced audio/video/tv electronics for 35 years.
Please tell me all about short term electrocution and long term electrocution and at differing voltages and differing currents and differing durations.
Go right ahead, tell me what you found out ?.


Dan.
I WAS electrocuted on the job in 1981, spent 2 days in the hospital...so YOUR expert opinion doesn't cut squat with me...DO NOT TAKE ELECTRICAL SAFETY FOR GRANTED...EVER!!
By the way, I serviced electronics and electrical for 25 years, thankfully retired now.

Mike
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Old 9th November 2019, 10:30 PM   #18
Elvee is offline Elvee  Belgium
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Headroom View Post
Why ?.
Attachment 793473
Such choke toroids are non conductive and have insulating encapsulation and are standard equpment in many applications.
If there is fuse upstream of the toroid what can be the risk/problem ?.

Dan.
At the risk of adding a "toxic" opinion to this thread, I have to clarify this statement: ferrites used for suppression purpose in CM filters normally have a high permeability, and a high DC/AC conductivity: for example the T38 material in the Epcos classification or 3E3 for the Philips/Ferroxcube system.
These are MnZn ferrites, and for a voltage like 230VAC (or even 115VAC), they look like a short, because of their VDR properties they owe to their metal-oxide nature.

The toroid used in CM filters is normally covered with several thick insulating layers of lacquer to prevent any breakdown, but even so, I have seen a few examples where the insulation failed, causing a meltdown of the ferrite core (and a blown fuse, fortunately).

Some US and Japanese-made ferrites do not exactly fall into the MnZn category, and have properties in-between NiZn and MnZn materials, but at high enough voltages, they still behave as VDR's, even if their DC resistance looks infinite.
This means that all ferrite cores should be treated as conductive, except for extremely low voltages.

The enamel of the wire can just provide functional insulation, not safety insulation.
Several additional barriers are required for safety insulation
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Old 9th November 2019, 11:21 PM   #19
Mark Tillotson is online now Mark Tillotson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Headroom View Post
DF96 as usual you are toxic FOS, commercial CM chokes like I illustrated use standard enameled wire.

No such animal. All magnet wire has insulation, and there are many different kinds of insulation and voltage ratings for such insulation. Finer wires typically have to have thinner insulation and thus a lower rating, but only the datasheet for the actual product will tell you chapter and verse. There are classes for temperature limits for insulation too.


You certainly can't expect some random ECW to be rated for mains transients, bifilar or otherwise.


"Around 600V" isn't a rating! Its certainly not enough for mains equipment where multi-kV transients due to equipment or lightning are expected.


Let me tell you a story:

I bought a nice little TFT monitor (8 inch) for a project. It came with a mains SMPS wall-wart. I was seeing all sort of odd noise bursts (the project involved spectrum analysis and the noise floor was boogieing away like noone's business sporadically.

Eventually I put a scope on the power rail from this dodgy wall wart - torrents of spikey noise at sporadic intervals.

I bought a proper wall wart and broke this unit apart - the isolation transformer had primary and secondary windings crossing and touching. My noise was the insulation leaking in bursts - close to breakdown I suspect. So no, "standard ECW" is not enough.

Last edited by Mark Tillotson; 9th November 2019 at 11:27 PM.
 
Old 10th November 2019, 12:36 AM   #20
anatech is offline anatech  Canada
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The "Reisert Bifilar Balun" for Power Supplies.


Once again a thread has to be closed due to the dangers inherent in DIY components on the primary AC line.

We recognize that when building your own AC powered projects you have to connect to the AC line, but the least you can do is use proper safety recognized and approved components. There are very good reasons why there are safety organizations that certify what we connect to the power grid no matter what country you live in.

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