D-Noizator: a magic active noise canceller to retrofit & upgrade any 317-based V.Reg.

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You shouldn't let yourself influenced by bad " thunderer elforum" like vibes :)

Your first version here was better at least for the heatsink chosen place : https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pow...it-upgrade-317-based-reg-129.html#post6362298


First of all electrolitic capacitors have a higher permitted value for max temperature than they have for the minimum one, then being electrolitic, it means that the reforming takes advantage of a litlle bit of heat as any chemical process.Perhaps you remember 11'th grade high school chemistry :) Most professional industrial circuits are using a minimal source of heat next to the filtering capacitors.
 
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I recently built my DAC with LT3045/LT3094/TPS7A4700 from LDOVR.
They are very compact and hardly worth the hassle to make yourself.

The earlier discussed LM317 as pre-regulator will make thermal management easier if the LDO has little dropout to handle set by LM317.

For TPS7A a little heathsink as sold in RPi kits could fit nice too.


You just exposed the biggest problems with all these modern LDO's as LDO chips are ment to be used with a low drop over them then your PCB photo shows the next weakness of this chips: they aren't easily suited for DIY without using an external professional PCB manufacture then a soldering oven or appropriate air heating soldering techniques. Why using an external lm317 and an LDO if you can use just the lm317 and a few chip and easy to solder transistors?

I go with the Technics denoiser...less space on the pcb , cheap components, cheap pcb manufacture , good enough results.
 
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I can make a double layer version for the factory according to Triler's project. If it's not a hurry ...


I don't see the advantage of double layer. Maybe a bit more compact. I wouldn't use ground planes.

I attached all three projects in Kicad, they have the same filename as I copied them to modify into the other. Free to use, not commercially distribute.

They have not been verified yet, as working. If anyone makes any of them please report your findings.
 

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You shouldn't let yourself influenced by bad " thunderer elforum" like vibes :)

Your first version here was better at least for the heatsink chosen place : https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pow...it-upgrade-317-based-reg-129.html#post6362298


First of all electrolitic capacitors have a higher permitted value for max temperature than they have for the minimum one, then being electrolitic, it means that the reforming takes advantage of a litlle bit of heat as any chemical process.Perhaps you remember 11'th grade high school chemistry :) Most professional industrial circuits are using a minimal source of heat next to the filtering capacitors.




If heat is a concern then maybe a layout like this, and all you need to do is modify the LM317 input circuit, move the parts around:
edit: maybe remove the 5mm L/R footprint so you can squeeze a larger GND trace. I made the example in a hurry.




vAEjlyL.png

Bivnytt.png

4cUttxV.png
 
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I don't know...I really like your first arangement with the heatsink in the middle of the PCB.More compact and you wouldn't really need too much heat dissipation anyway.If you forget it working in the cold you won't have a nasty surprise due to frozen capacitors .That's the main reason for industrial design with the heatsink next to the capacitors.Good capacitors can take a lot of heat for decades.Most "audiophile" designs won't last more than 10 years on the market ...Very few will survive 3 decades or more.So why would you bother? I'm still using some equipment that placed the capacitors next to huge heatsinks running hot since the 80's...
 
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You guys may want to invest in a thermal imaging camera. "FLIR" is one famous brand but there are plenty of others.

I ran a Group Buy in December, for a power supply PCB to run chipamps. The board positioned high-power-dissipation rectifier diodes, near to electrolytic capacitors: (link) . I used a thermal camera (dongle attached to my smartphone) to capture some thermal images; they showed just how hot the diodes, their heatsinks, and the nearby electrolytics, were running. Have a look -- click on the images to see them full size.

796302d1574274095-pcb-available-psu-chipamps-super-gain-clone-compact3886-hottest_spot-jpg


796300d1574274095-pcb-available-psu-chipamps-super-gain-clone-compact3886-top_view-jpg


Just imagine the wonderful images YOU could take, if you had one of these! Enjoy.
 
The latest version has actually a smaller surface than the middle heatsink ones. Not by much but technically it is smaller.

I attached the first versions as well. They don't have the input Wima cap footprint, and bridge is not compatible with the Saligny LC rectifier, you can tinker with it as you wish. Also there's 2.54mm connectors, and no mounting holes. Make the board longer or wider so you can drill it.

I made a version with caps moved to one side, for the nonoiser only, just as an example, if you fancy the first version but still want to keep the caps away from the heatsink. You can move the input circuit as you want to suit your needs.

On the latest version there's room to mount the bridge diodes on the case, and there's room for a pass transistor as well! If you're into that sort of stuff, and is doable on the back layer only without jumper wires. But you'd need to reinforce the traces with solder for higher currents. On both versions you can tinker with the input circuit but I wouldn't touch the output one.



SFQNpmT.png

d3TcIcF.png
 

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The pcb may be smaller, but the heatsink attached makes for the same final space. I doubt that you need high power high frequency diodes.Besides those diodes drop is usually double than the low frequency ones when used at their usual currents.At 1.5 amps(max lm317 current) those diodes don't need to be in contact with the heatsink either. For this kind of regulators i'm usually using BYV27 series like diodes if i really want high frequency diodes.
 
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Yet i preffer the Technics denoisers for the simplicity of running them at any usual voltage with an appropriate zener and lm78xx series chip which i can source from any scraped digital board.It may not be as good as Elvee's or other's design due to the use of LM78xx series, but it's good enough, those caps in the first photo are 6800uf ones , one at the input,one at the output and i don't need to pay anyone's commercial fees for using a 30 years old design.
 

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You can add the denoiser or dienoiser (can't remember) to 78xx regs as well. Check back in the thread. I think there was a version where you could have variable output as well, out of a 7812.

I made a version for high power with to220 diodes mounted to the case. Bit smaller board as well (70mm X 46mm). More difficult to diy as the traces are fat and close to each-other in some places. I made the version for the NoNoiser as an example. Hope I got the connection right for the diodes.

Really curious of measurements for this one, if anyone makes it. I attached the Kicad project.
edit: I removed the load resistor, I figured there's going to be some minimal draw with a high-current project.


ByBkwUf.png

MhSDrvT.png
 

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One double op-amp takes less space than 4 transistors as the passive components for your denoiser take the same space as the passive components i use on both regulators, but on one pcb of your size i have both positive and negative supply with the Technics denoiser.The perf boards in the photos post are two complete pos+neg regs(+-10v and +-20v) I'm also using the biggest size of capacitors ...
 
It is not my circuit, it's Elvee's. Denoiser has one transistor, and die/nonoiser have two transistors.
Sense lines are also very useful! Especially on higher power designs. Also CRC/CLC filtering helps a lot. I think those are 22mm diameter



I put a bigger inductor to get an idea, but mounting would be a bit difficult as it's pretty small and caps/inductor are in the way. Maybe put screws from the outside and use pliers to keep the nut steady.


PKgayqK.png
 
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Yet i preffer the Technics denoisers for the simplicity of running them at any usual voltage with an appropriate zener and lm78xx series chip which i can source from any scraped digital board.It may not be as good as Elvee's or other's design due to the use of LM78xx series, but it's good enough, those caps in the first photo are 6800uf ones , one at the input,one at the output and i don't need to pay anyone's commercial fees for using a 30 years old design.

If you think that things on perfboard are able to compete with a double layer PCB with a modern regulator you are dreaming indeed.

There is no "good enough", we want the best out of our audio and the PSU is most important. Not to keep hanging in the past while way beter stuff is available out there be it DIY or ready made. Regs should work OK in the audio band but for DACs the regs should be able to cope with high frequencies too. Many will use such a PSU for digital gear which demands other things of a PSU. Not everyone uses 30 year old analog gear and is building LM317 stuff for it.
 
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You guys may want to invest in a thermal imaging camera. "FLIR" is one famous brand but there are plenty of others.

I ran a Group Buy in December, for a power supply PCB to run chipamps. The board positioned high-power-dissipation rectifier diodes, near to electrolytic capacitors: (link) . I used a thermal camera (dongle attached to my smartphone) to capture some thermal images; they showed just how hot the diodes, their heatsinks, and the nearby electrolytics, were running. Have a look -- click on the images to see them full size.

Just imagine the wonderful images YOU could take, if you had one of these! Enjoy.


Totally out of reach for most or unreasonably expensive when compared to the device one is building. I have extensive experience with FLIR and they are good professional tools for higher power applications. I wouldn't call the pictures wonderful as one needs a higher range very expensive FLIR for real good pictures otherwise they are low res. WE could take the same pictures but with these currents I would not worry too much but I would check with a simple IR meter as usual. Your application is a power amplifier and your testing was done with +/- 27V and 4A continuously for 90 minutes. That's 216W.

Footprint was a few pages ago capable for Saligny LC which appear green/blue under heavy loads on a FLIR. The heatsink was already moved as a precaution. Afterwards the design changed maybe because of choosing low or high power application.
 
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You just exposed the biggest problems with all these modern LDO's as LDO chips are ment to be used with a low drop over them then your PCB photo shows the next weakness of this chips: they aren't easily suited for DIY without using an external professional PCB manufacture then a soldering oven or appropriate air heating soldering techniques. Why using an external lm317 and an LDO if you can use just the lm317 and a few chip and easy to solder transistors?

I go with the Technics denoiser...less space on the pcb , cheap components, cheap pcb manufacture , good enough results.

I know many here are die-hard DIY hobbyist who reach the same level of fabrication as professional business.

There are also enough users who are happy enough to buy kits (pre-assembled or not) to reach their goals.
I have to admit I belong to this group although I have remote plans to make some PCB's myself based on proven schematics / designs.

I think we all want better results for less money than buying high quality hifi in a store. If those pre-built LDO's achieve the result I am looking for I am fine with that :D