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D-Noizator: a magic active noise canceller to retrofit & upgrade any 317-based V.Reg.
D-Noizator: a magic active noise canceller to retrofit & upgrade any 317-based V.Reg.
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Old 14th July 2019, 01:09 PM   #51
Elvee is offline Elvee  Belgium
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Mu is the theoretical voltage gain, related to the transconductance, but the transconductance being linked to the collector current, it cannot be increased arbitrarily unless the collector load is active, which brings other types of problems and complications
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Old 14th July 2019, 11:01 PM   #52
bondini is offline bondini  Australia
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D-Noizator: a magic active noise canceller to retrofit & upgrade any 317-based V.Reg.
Nice circuit and explanations. Now, where to find RH117s?
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Old 14th July 2019, 11:50 PM   #53
Mark Johnson is offline Mark Johnson  United States
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D-Noizator: a magic active noise canceller to retrofit & upgrade any 317-based V.Reg.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bondini View Post
... where to find RH117s?
According to google, here
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Old 15th July 2019, 02:44 AM   #54
bondini is offline bondini  Australia
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D-Noizator: a magic active noise canceller to retrofit & upgrade any 317-based V.Reg.
Hmmm .... listed as a device, no stock shown at Element14, Digikey, Mouser.
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Old 15th July 2019, 07:57 AM   #55
Elvee is offline Elvee  Belgium
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The RH117 is a radiation-hardened version of the LM117~317.

I used it for the sim, because it was present in the LTspice library, but in fact its characteristics are just like any 317, and in my prototypes I used exclusively LM317's (from ST).
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Old 15th July 2019, 10:51 AM   #56
bondini is offline bondini  Australia
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D-Noizator: a magic active noise canceller to retrofit & upgrade any 317-based V.Reg.
Thanks - I will make do with the LM317
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Old 15th July 2019, 05:47 PM   #57
jls001 is offline jls001  India
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Newbie question, @Elvee: what is Kelvin connection? I have a LM317 based PSU for my DAC so your DeNoizator looks like something worth rigging up.
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Old 15th July 2019, 07:14 PM   #58
Elvee is offline Elvee  Belgium
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Kelvin = 4 wire connection: one pair supplying the power (force terminals), and the other going to the error amplifier (sense terminals).

More info on wikipedia or here: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...UqjkeEr9KY7Gkh

With the denoizator, Kelvin connection are not required, but they can be implemented: just connect the terminals with the small arrows directly across the load.

With the nonoiser, 4-wire configuration is imperative if you want to have a chance to reach the advertised performance.
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Old 15th July 2019, 08:02 PM   #59
Elvee is offline Elvee  Belgium
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Here is another question, sent by PM.

I will answer it here, because other people will probably find it useful
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickTH
Hey LV,

Some things are not clear :

DeNoiser : do the values of the components change for different output voltages ?
No, the capacitors just need to have a sufficient working voltage for the output.
Quote:
What do .ac dec 100 0.01 100k
:tran 0 100m 0.1u
SINE(0 100u 1K) mean ?
These are spice directives, telling the simulator what it has to do.
You can ignore them completely.

Quote:
You state 0.66 uV, is this rms or pp ( or even sqrHz) ?
Am I right that 0.66 uVrms = 5nV/sqrHz ? (for 10hz to 20 kHz)
0.66µV rms, in a 10Hz to 10kHz bandwidth.
This would translate to 6.6nV/sqrtHz for a flat noise (which it is not), but in fact the 0.66µV was measured before I used my new LNA.

The actualized value (posted later) is in fact 0.3µV

Quote:
Does R1 220 ohm and C3 220uF still give a slower output voltage rise at startup ?
Yes

Your NoNoiser :

Quote:
again :
:dc temp 0 100 0.5
ac dec 100 2m 10e6
: noise V(out) V2 dec 100 1 1e6 even google translate doesn't know
Ignore again

Quote:
R8 2k2 ... is this a potentiometer ? Or why is there a connection dot in the middle of the resistor ?
If it's a pot , then you have to tune it ?
It is a trimmer.
You could have to adjust it, because the DC output won't be as accurately defined as in a regular, or denoiser 317 circuit.
In the nonoiser, you have to compute the output voltage slightly differently, compared to a regular 317 circuit.
I will provide a formula, if you cannot compute it by yourself.

Quote:
Is here too a slow output voltage rise at startup , since the 220 uF is not exactly where it is in regular designs.
There will also be a slower rise
Quote:
It is unclear which Resistors to change for different output voltage .
I'll give a detailed answer later
Quote:
What are the values for a 15 V output ? Are the specs for noise and PSRR the same for different output voltages an different loads ?
The noise and PSRR vary slightly with the output voltage, and a bit more with the load, but the variations are much smaller than for a regular 317 regulator.
The nonoiser tends to dominate, and evens out the variations
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Old 16th July 2019, 02:41 AM   #60
RickTH is offline RickTH
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^ Thanks LV.
Wow ... so an ordinary LM317 + the DeNoiser gives us 300nVrms ~ 3nV/rHz from 10Hz to 10kHz . That is as low as the ultra low noise LT3042 , and the best of low noise audio opamps! And this without kelvin connections .
Most of TI and LT's low noise regulators (LDO's) are around 40 to 60 uVrms , or 10 to 20 times more noisy . Very impressive . Not to speak about their average PSRR...
I hope someone verifies these very low numbers . If really as low as 300nVrms , TI and LT can close down some of their regulator production lines . Who wants these expensive chips that have 10 times or more noise than a simple LM317 and a transistor ?
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