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D-Noizator: a magic active noise canceller to retrofit & upgrade any 317-based V.Reg.
D-Noizator: a magic active noise canceller to retrofit & upgrade any 317-based V.Reg.
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Old 16th December 2020, 03:51 PM   #1861
Trileru is offline Trileru  Romania
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Join Date: Dec 2010
A rectification on the previous post, the sim was made for 12Vout from LM317. PSRR and output impedance take a hit at 3.3Vout. So for digital technically LT3042 and ADM7150 should perform better as PSRR/output impedance goes vs LM317+dienoiser. Not much else can be done to improve the output impedance.
For PSRR improvement one could add a cap multiplier in front of the regulator. BOM for inductor + complete cap multiplier + lm317n sot223 + dienoiser with everything included (protection diodes/caps/bjt) minus resistors is still a tad cheaper than a single LT3042 without anything else. So for cheaper than LT3042 we get better PSRR at all frequencies. This is the configuration I used on the previous posted DAC pcb.

Output impedance is worse but not by far, I mean there's 30mOhms or something like that at higher frequencies vs ADM7150. Those can easily be lost in traces. That's the resistance of a 6cm long 40mil wide track to give a sense of it. Not that far off that it puts it in a whole other league. Even so I still think it wouldn't make perceptible difference for audio. Might do, but I personally don't think it translates into audible differences.
What strikes me is the LT3082 performance, I'm starting to think the model is not accurate tho it's native to LTSpice. I've added it in both PSRR and output impedance sims, with cap multiplier and dienoiser at 3.3Vout.
So my bad on the previous sim, I wasn't careful at output voltage and got hyped. Tho I still think LM317+dienoiser is a very good performer and the small differences (at 3.3Vout) could easily be lost in pcb design.
edit: PSRR for LM317+dienoiser is with L and cap multiplier, the same for LT3082.
Attached Images
File Type: png Screenshot from 2020-12-16 17-33-30.png (45.2 KB, 539 views)
File Type: png Screenshot from 2020-12-16 17-49-33.png (49.4 KB, 528 views)

Last edited by Trileru; 16th December 2020 at 04:05 PM.
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Old 16th December 2020, 05:39 PM   #1862
Trileru is offline Trileru  Romania
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Seems Siglent is using LM317 in their new SDS1104X-U $399 4channel oscilloscope:
EEVblog #1355 - NEW Siglent SDS1104X-U $399 4CH Oscilloscope Teardown - YouTube
edit: with a tl431. curious if they will at some point use lm317+de/dienoiser

Last edited by Trileru; 16th December 2020 at 05:42 PM.
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Old 19th December 2020, 08:49 PM   #1863
samoloko is offline samoloko  Bulgaria
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Join Date: Jun 2006
thank you for this
worth a try
very nice as this can be used for negative polarity also Instead of LM337
Is there a BOM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trileru View Post
And the same thing for only the LM317. You can also use LT108x for this and the previous board, forgot to mention. Just needs very low ESR on the output cap (will test with 1206 ceramic) and some compensation, I think around 40-50nF/3.9R or so. When I get to testing I hope to get values for most of them.
Board size is around 37mm x 93mm.
Also warning, this board has not been tested. You make it at your own risk!
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Old 20th December 2020, 01:55 PM   #1864
Trileru is offline Trileru  Romania
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samoloko View Post
Is there a BOM

Not yet but I'll make one and post it.
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Old 21st December 2020, 07:25 PM   #1865
Trileru is offline Trileru  Romania
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I made a bom for all 4 versions, single/dual tht/smd. The tht versions are diy-able and also have gerber files for fab. The smd versions have separate projects for diy and fab house.
I removed the tht sense connectors as I don't think you'll get good results with simple wires for remote sensing. I added u.fl connectors for all sense lines. If you absolutely want to, you can solder wires directly on that footprint, but I recommend using u.fl pigtails, can be found real cheap on ebay. Or maybe scavenall versions.ge some old wireless router. Theoretically you should have better results. I'll test this when I get my ordered parts. On the sense side of the coax be sure to keep the shield unsoldered, it should cover the middle signal cable as close as practical to the sense point but make sure it's not touching the sense wire or other parts of the circuit. Solder just the middle wire of the coax to the signal you're sensing (gnd or Vout). I added the cheapest u.fl connectors I found on Mouser, I used that footprint on all boards.

I made some minor tweaks to all boards. THT versions were missing the protection diode for cap multiplier. I added a fuse to the single smd version. There's extra smd footprints for output caps on all boards for where low esr is needed (lm337 or lt3082/lt1085 etc). 10uF 1206-1210 caps should work fine.
I didn't include any resistor in bom, you get those in your preferred type, they should be either 6.3/2.5mm for tht either 0805 for smd. I specified the required values in the BOM and quantity for each value. Make sure to also get 0R 0805 for different bypasses, like making a denoiser instead of a dienoiser or bypassing lm317 output cap esr correcting resistor. The caps I put in BOM should have the correct ESR range for both tht and smd versions for LM317.
Dienoiser should work fine with 560R resistor for most voltage ranges. I wouldn't stress with this value. You could adapt it to the output voltage but gains are minimal in the grand scheme of things.
For the smd diy versions you must link the voltage setting resistor gnd to the gnd trace using a wire link. This has to be done on both regulators on the dual smd diy version. There's a pad left for this near each resistor. Also for the smd versions the smd variable pot is TC33X type, you get the value you need depending on your output voltage and resistor value you use in parallel with it.
For some reason Mouser does not stock BC560 anymore so I put 2N4403 instead. Using LTSpice seems to give almost identical result to BC560 in the cap multiplier.
THT version has 35V input caps. For smd version I was limited to 25V for the 220uF from cap multiplier. If you want to go higher there's a 150uF/35V max capacitance cap available in 6.3mm diameter, smd. But you also need to up the voltage rating on the 100uF cap at the input of the regulator. It's 25V atm.

For THT dual version I didn't add any to220 rectifying diode. You can choose what type you like, Schottky or regular etc. That's needed only if you want to use the dual supply without a center tapped transformer. Mind the current rating.
For the compensation network for dienoisers I recommend getting 10nF/22nF/33nF and 47nF caps just so you have enough to cover most needs. Get 35V rating at least, al 0805 package. I'd put the 3.9R resistor as well, but for denoiser you could bypass it.
For LM317 output cap esr correcting resistor I'd get a few values between 0.1R and 0.25R to cover any situation if you want to use other caps than the ones I put in the bom.
For the smd fuses you can use any 1206-1210 smd package, just that you need to figure out the current rating needed depending on your output current. Play with LTSpice to see the current spikes and figure out what value is adequate. If you have inline fuses at transformer then bypass with 0R 1206-1210 package.
If you don't want remote sensing you can close the smd jumpers on all board versions, you'll get the low noise on the output of the board. Should be good enough for most needs, but if you want you can go with coax pigtails. I'll report on this when I get to test it.
I consider these rev 1.1, I made a diy version of the rev 1 dual smd board and I'll test it once my parts arrive. I should be able to test LT3082 as well, and also the smd and tht versions of LM3x7N. I'll post the comp values I end up with for each. Rev 1.1 versions should work the same, they are not that different in layout.
The tht single version is a bit shorter now because I removed the sense tht connector.
I also increased the thickness of the output traces for lower output impedance at the connector. There's also some alternative 1206/1210 cap footprints for reg outputs, closer to the reg. Might test to see if it makes any difference.
BOM has 4 sheets for each version.
Also warning! these designs have not been tested yet. You make them at your own risk!
Attached Files
File Type: zip single_tht.zip (186.3 KB, 15 views)
File Type: zip dual_tht.zip (298.6 KB, 13 views)
File Type: zip single_smd_diy.zip (94.4 KB, 7 views)
File Type: zip dual_smd_diy.zip (201.1 KB, 7 views)
File Type: zip single_smd_fab.zip (125.0 KB, 7 views)
File Type: zip dual_smd_fab.zip (230.6 KB, 7 views)
File Type: zip bom.zip (34.0 KB, 12 views)

Last edited by Trileru; 21st December 2020 at 07:42 PM.
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Old 21st December 2020, 07:41 PM   #1866
Trileru is offline Trileru  Romania
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And traces layout for all versions and how the u.fl connectors look. The single tht version is now 88.5mm long.

Last edited by Trileru; 21st December 2020 at 08:10 PM.
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Old 21st December 2020, 08:30 PM   #1867
Trileru is offline Trileru  Romania
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I think you'd have to check the single tht diy how the inductor sits on that trace, without soldermask there's a risk of shorting the inductor with the trace. Not much issue as you'd loose the HF attenuation but with the fuse I had no choice in routing.
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Old 22nd December 2020, 03:05 PM   #1868
samoloko is offline samoloko  Bulgaria
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thank you for very hard work
I am sure your pcbs will bring joy In fellows when using them
It Is very good that single tht pcb got shortest
maybe you can think to add Mark Johnson snubbers
also Is this C L C filter so much better than say C R C
L part take much place than resistor
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Old 22nd December 2020, 03:12 PM   #1869
vacuphile is offline vacuphile  Netherlands
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I am using a dienoizer in a balanced mc phone amp and nothing but praise
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Old 22nd December 2020, 03:46 PM   #1870
Trileru is offline Trileru  Romania
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samoloko View Post
maybe you can think to add Mark Johnson snubbers
also Is this C L C filter so much better than say C R C
L part take much place than resistor

If the snubbers are before the bridge you could add them on the transformer output.
The L cuts HF noise from the supply. It also keeps the output impedance down into the regulator. The resistor can also get hot depending on the drop.
You can bypass the inductor if you feel you don't need it. I put it to cut down HF stuff. You don't really need a resistor considering the PSRR of the whole supply.
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File Type: png Screenshot from 2020-12-22 17-40-29.png (106.6 KB, 68 views)
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