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Pensil 10.2 or 12 wrt bass extention?

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Hi everybody,

I am either building the pensil 10.2 or the normal pensil 12. I'd build the Superpensil but they will not pass the WAF.

I know the Superpensil will have better low end extention than the Pensil 10.2 but what about the normal Pensil 12?

Looking at the datasheets, the 10.2 cabinet actually has a bigger volume and the 10.2 driver has a lower fs. Will this result in a lower F6? Simulating both drivers in WinISD seems to indicate so in a BR alignment.

SPL is not of major importance but dynamics are. I mostly listen to small scale jazz / folk / blues but the occasional large scale orchestral works should not sound constrained.

On the other hand, off axis listening should be enjoyable as well, hence my doubts about the larger Alpair 12. I'd rather go for the 10.2 if the range is about the same compared to the 12.

Any thoughts?
 
Hi Swifty,
Come at the project from the this direction........

1 - How big is your room?
2 - How damped is your room (lots of furniture, carpet etc)?
3 - Amplification and source?
4 - Only Stereo or also future HT use?

Tell us more

Cheers

Mark.

Thanks for the response Mark. As for your questions:

1)The room is L shaped, with the living room being about 6x5 meters, and a kitchen of about 12 square meters making up a shallow L shape.

2)The floor is solid oak on concrete, upholstered couches and curtains. I would say the room is averagely dampened.

3)Aplification is done via a Unison Research Unico integrated amplifier, the original version. It has a ECC82 pre amp stage and a 2x90W transistor power stage. The source is a Sony CDP X303ES

4)Strictly Stereo, with plans to switch to a NAS/media server with diy DAC as source.

BR,
Foppe
 
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Thanks for the response Mark. As for your questions:
1)The room is L shaped, with the living room being about 6x5 meters, and a kitchen of about 12 square meters making up a shallow L shape.
2)The floor is solid oak on concrete, upholstered couches and curtains. I would say the room is averagely dampened.
3)Aplification is done via a Unison Research Unico integrated amplifier, the original version. It has a ECC82 pre amp stage and a 2x90W transistor power stage. The source is a Sony CDP X303ES
4)Strictly Stereo, with plans to switch to a NAS/media server with diy DAC as source.
BR,
Foppe

Hi Foppe,
Interesting. 30 square metres, a fair sized room. Room size is the primary factor so........... I'd tempted with the Alpair 12 in the Super-Pencil 12 box. Dave (Planet 10) has the plan on his site:

http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FAL/downloads/Pensil-Series-maps-211010.pdf

The other consideration is the Alpair 10.2 in its matched Pencil cab which also should do the job well.

I get the feeling that you'll like the dynamics of the Alpair 12. It has the advantage of the larger cone so in theory suit the room size slightly better.

Hoping others will also comment

Cheers

Mark.
 
Thanks Mark, for confirming my gut feeling. One thing though: You recommend the Superpensil enclosure. What about the normal Pensil 12? As I said, the size of the Super will be a hard sell to SWMBO. Is the normal sized pensil too much of a compromise?

Arrrrr....... yes, interesting question, normal Pencil 12 V Pencil 10.2.

I've ordered a pair of Oakwood (Tony Wong) 10.2 Pencils. Hoping they will arrive before the Chinese New Year holiday. In the meantime, I've got a pair of old Oakwood Pencil 10's. I'm going to install the new 10.2 drivers into these cabs and add extra damping. Scott has advised me to add extra damping to allow for the Alp10.2's greater Qts and Vas. While using 10.2 drivers in old Pencil 10 cabs isn't an optimal combination, it should work sufficiently to allow us a comparison with my Japanese (white birchwood) built Pencil 12's. I'll ask Norio and Tony to feedback on this thread.

There's a listening event arranged for tomorrow afternoon so will ask the guys to comment on bass delivery from both these systems. Once the 10.2 cabs arrive, I'll repeat the event but this will have to be sometime in mid February.

Cheers

Mark.
 
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As Mark notes, Pencil 10.2 will have a bit more grunt on the bottom end; Pencil 12 should have a somewhat wider dynamic BW.

Hi Scott (still up?)
Be really interesting to also run a pair of Super Pencil 12 V Pencil 10.2. We've got a new cab maker who does nice plywood units. We've got him making a small cab to see the quality of his work. Could be a candidate maker for a Super Pencil 12.

Cheers

Mark.
(my SKYPES's on if you fancy a chat)
 
..... I'll ask Norio and Tony to feedback on this thread.

There's a listening event arranged for tomorrow afternoon so will ask the guys to comment on bass delivery from both these systems. Once the 10.2 cabs arrive, I'll repeat the event but this will have to be sometime in mid February.

Cheers

Mark.


That would be great Mark, I'm looking forward to hearing what they have to say.

Br,
Foppe
 
Scott,

Could I add a little volume to the Pensil 12 by adding a bit of depth, thus creating something in between the Superpensil and the Pensil 12 volume wise? I'm thinking to extend the internal depth to 39cm, creating about 80 liters of internal volume. Or will this negatively affect the "dampened air coupler" alignment?

BR,
Foppe
 
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Thanks for the comment Scott, This is basically what WinISD also hints at and exactly why I'm undecided....Let's see what the feedback from the lstening test will be.

H Swifty and Guys
The guys gathered yesterday afteroon for a listening session (Transformer maker Kenneth, Tony Wong the amp guy, Norio who looks after Markaudio sales in Japan and me on the coffee machine.

I'd already set up the Pencil 10's and 12's side by side and warmed up the Accuphases. Things got a bit more complicated pretty quickly as various bits of kit (amps and CD players) got dragged out my aladin's cave so I'll do my best to summaries. Norio and Tony can chip in if I've missed anything.

Tony and Kenneth initially voted for the Pencil 12 when being fed by the Accuphase amp and CD player (308 integrated and DP67 CD). They liked the extra dynamics that comes with the greater cone acreage. Norio on the other-hand preferred the Pencil 10 with its 10.2 drivers for the lush bass and greater warmth.

After this initial test, various things happened. First off Tony's 300B was connected but we had a few problems with a tube socket so this amp was abandoned. Then we brought a sony CDP 333EX (all Japan model) but this to failed after playing a Chris Botti CD (didn't like Chris Botti so went on skrike - maybe this was a British built Sony CD player:D). After this, everyone returned to using the DP67 and also a Denon DCD3000. On the amp front, we brought out Tony's SET 6L6 (uses 4 X 6L6) which from memory is chucking out aorund 6 watts per channel. The final amp and and CD player choice drifted back to the Accuphase 803, Tony's 6V6 and the DP67.

The sort of general conclusion was:

Pencil 10 with 10.2 drivers + extra stuffing sounded really good on Tony's 6V6 coupled to the DP67. Tons of warmth and depth, especially in the bass department. Kenneth in particular was impressed although he felt that upgrading the transformers on the 6L6 would add more overall performance.

The Pencil 12 sounded ubber dynamic on the Accuphases (amp and CD). Our studio is big so the 12's really cut the mustard. That cone acreage comes in real handy when filling a larger space.

It was a tough call but in the end, the guys felt on this occasion, the 10's on Tony's 6V6 amp won by a short neck. But they think it will be more interesting to listen to the Pencil 10.2 cabs, arriving hopefully by mid Feb. Just goes to show how challenging it is to chose between these systems and how its important to do as best a total system match as possible. Lets see what happens when we start running the Pencil 10.2's. But in the meantime this might help:

1 - If you got a large space (over 6M X6M say) and your more interested in clarity and dynamics (you want to hear the pin drop from one of the musician's shirt tails onto the stage floor) - Alpair 12. But partner it carefully. Cheap amp, dodgy CD's etc. etc., forget the 12, it will kill anything it dislikes.

2 - If your priorities are more generally spread, the Alp10.2 is a nice all-rounder, particularly when partnered with warm (ish) tube amps. Still lots of detail etc. but is a but more cosy than the 12 on the "warmth" stakes.

This really is personal choice. I personally gravitate to my Pencil 12's when time permits. I just end up really enjoying the dynamics and while they're not quite as warm as I'd like some days, I find the 12's almost addictive. Please bear in mind this is just me. The next audio guy coming to listen might find the 12's too much to handle, or like me, he'll love the devil in the detail. I really need to give the 10.2's some airtime next month. I'll see how I feel then.

Cheers

Mark.
 
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Thank you Mark for the elaborate feedback. From your description it seems that I would like the 10.2's a lot. How was the low end "texture" on the 10.2? Were the bass lines clearly defined?
BR,
Foppe

Hi Foppe,
Glad to help. That's what won the session yesterday. The 10.2's low to mids in the Pencil boxes on Tony's 6L6 got everyone's vote. Deep, rich and detailed.
Cheers
Mark.
 
That settles it for me then! I will be building a pair of Pencil 10.2's in the near future. I will start a separate thread when the build commences, with a lot of pics of course. :D

Thanks again for helping me decide Mark, it's interaction like this that really adds a lot of added value to a brand.

BR,
Foppe
 
That settles it for me then! I will be building a pair of Pencil 10.2's in the near future. I will start a separate thread when the build commences, with a lot of pics of course. :D

Thanks again for helping me decide Mark, it's interaction like this that really adds a lot of added value to a brand.

BR,
Foppe

Glad to help out. Dave's got the Pencil 10.2 plans available for download on his site:

http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FAL/downloads/Pensil-Series-maps-211010.pdf

Let me know if you need help sourcing the 10.2 drivers.

Cheers

Mark.
 
One more 10.2

Hi All!

Thanks Mark for your beatiful Driver(alp10.2) I am soon finished with my building - 17-18 liter Ported with the new driver. Must run them in through the weekend - and then I will know the sound. Last autumn I built a Fonken with fr125sr/ert26 - and I wonder how can anything be better than this revealing couple(Fonken). Very excited about this new project.
Have lots of pics if it is of any interest!

Greating

Olav
 
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