Hello Olav,
Would be great to see your Alp10.2 project.
I recommend starting a new thread. "Alpair 10.2 in 17 litre BR" could be a good title. Please feel free to post plans, pics and any information on the build.
Cheers
Mark.
Hi again!
Sure will do Mark.
Mostly finished now - missing support under speaker and front/cover to flush mount driver in my style!
The Alp10.2 is on their first Run-In with Cara Dillon softly with24/96 from the Opera House Belfast!
Sound is quiet for the moment - but distinct and clear!!
Be back in a couple of days with photos and some schetches. If I manage to get Word to draw it as I plan!
Olav
Sure will do Mark.
Mostly finished now - missing support under speaker and front/cover to flush mount driver in my style!
The Alp10.2 is on their first Run-In with Cara Dillon softly with24/96 from the Opera House Belfast!
Sound is quiet for the moment - but distinct and clear!!
Be back in a couple of days with photos and some schetches. If I manage to get Word to draw it as I plan!
Olav
This is great input on this thread. I'm really leaning toward the 12's and REALLY like the SuperPensil12 (size not an issue at all, my wife will think these are small 
) or the Woden Solstice. I might go for the simpler SuperPensil if this is where I choose to go. I'd love to see any pics of the event if possible Mark!
Olav, can't wait to see your pics and sketches as well
Scott
) or the Woden Solstice. I might go for the simpler SuperPensil if this is where I choose to go. I'd love to see any pics of the event if possible Mark!Olav, can't wait to see your pics and sketches as well
Scott
Sub'd. After reading this I'm definitely in. I will be purchsing a pair of 10.2's in the next couple days as my room is only 10' x 10' and I believe it will be more than enough output to fill it. Thanks for the outstanding support Mark, like said in an earlier post. It's guys like you that really make a company great.
Cheers,
Steven
Cheers,
Steven
Ok, i was so close to pulling the trigger on the 12's till i realized i had to run out and get new alpine ski boots between the low in our foot and a half snow storm yesterday/last night followed by using my xc skies out of my house around the neighborhood last night and reading these latest post.
With no disrespect, whats the deal with the 12 being described as cold and analytical to the 10.2's warmth, i.e., those attributes make me think of bright in your face detail. Usually result of dips and rises in fq resp xross the bw. Whats more alarming to me about that is in most all cases when i read of a speaker review describing such, they are sibilant too! One thing i cant deal with is vocal sibilants. And then two forum members put A12's up for sale not long after purchase really put a cramp in my trigger finger, so to speak.
I'm starting to think i should forget about the greater bw of the A12 and higher sensitivity for use with my Fi 2A3 set amp, throw caution to the wind and go with the A10.2 rather then the A12.
A little help, i don't know if my hunch is correct or if i'm over reacting based on the years of hanging out in hifi shops auditioning everything, $tereophile shows, and the past phila audio society events. To whats out there in this application range/waf available plans (ty Scott L.), and affordability/quality it's obvious your drivers are worth having but i'm really confused here.
With no disrespect, whats the deal with the 12 being described as cold and analytical to the 10.2's warmth, i.e., those attributes make me think of bright in your face detail. Usually result of dips and rises in fq resp xross the bw. Whats more alarming to me about that is in most all cases when i read of a speaker review describing such, they are sibilant too! One thing i cant deal with is vocal sibilants. And then two forum members put A12's up for sale not long after purchase really put a cramp in my trigger finger, so to speak.
I'm starting to think i should forget about the greater bw of the A12 and higher sensitivity for use with my Fi 2A3 set amp, throw caution to the wind and go with the A10.2 rather then the A12.
A little help, i don't know if my hunch is correct or if i'm over reacting based on the years of hanging out in hifi shops auditioning everything, $tereophile shows, and the past phila audio society events. To whats out there in this application range/waf available plans (ty Scott L.), and affordability/quality it's obvious your drivers are worth having but i'm really confused here.
Well, I just ordered all the bits and pieces. Even a biscuit jointer
Nice! So you're doing the 10.2 Pensils? Be sure to make a thread about it, consider me subscribed
Hi Mp9,
Ummmmmmph......."with no disrespect"?
Clearly you've got issues with audio and have a particular sound in mind. I'm often asked to give my own view on the sound character of Markaudio drivers. I rarely do so, preferring to seek the opinions of listening groups and beta testers, encouraging them to reflect their thinking on this forum. I'm regularly told I concentrate too much on the "engineering" aspects of the drivers. So I guess I'll never win on this one.
"Rises and dips X BW". Check the various threads on Markaudio section of the forum and you'll find the answer this this one.
"sibilant". Please explain to me why you think this issue relates only to the driver?
"Bright in you face detail?" So what exactly are you trying to do? Are you making a system? What's your source (CD's and CD player?, DAC, Computer, downloaded music?). What are your musical tastes? Room, how big and how damped?
Last time I looked at myself in the mirror, I'm a fella who's produced 50,000 drivers to date so I must be doing something right. So talk about what you're trying to achieve in terms of your system, project build and musical tastes, I'm sure help is at hand.
Mark.
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Hi buzz,
I think you're right, Mp9 hasn't heard the Alps. I do understand Mp9's feelings and frustration. I went through this myself, gave up buying commercial drivers, started making my own. But solely concentrating on driver selection won't be enough. I can help him (I hope along with others on the forum). My worry for Mp9 is too much focus on the driver rather than seeing it as part of whole project/system build.
All the best with your project. I think you'll enjoy the 10.2's. Hoping you can post some pics and let folks know how you're getting along with your project.
Cheers
Mark.
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Mark, i haven't had the opportunity to hear any of them. Been excited about the new drivers, followed and asked questions for months.
What i like:
Dynamic contrast, i.e., loud/soft jumps in music with the impact of how it sounds live, but without having to listen at those ear damaging volume levels to get it.
Wide well balanced bw.
Quality bass, not earth shaking.
Warmish and easy to listen to.
Rooms = small - modest, furniture/carpet "damped" (no basement foundation or hurricane region cinder block walls).
Source = Sony XA707ES cdp i've had for years and am happy with. Belt drive and DD old Technics TT's, not great but at this point i lack the patience to do vinyl right for it to be worth investing in better.
Not ready to get into DAC's/high rez downloads.
Now for the boring long winded part. I'm not educated enough to know the EE tech aspects of vocal sibilance. Bought up the issue on diyaudio wrt, iirc the Fostex 138ES-R. Seemed like the next great driver for me to work with till i read more of them. Was told the fq resp plot didn't show peaks in the region which would cause sibilance. Experience began with a not even one year old ProAc Response 2S on loan from another audiophile. I read stellar reviews in many audio mags. Sounded good the first few hours till i began to play female artist. Thought perhaps it was bad system matching since the audio reviewers never mentioned it and it was so pronounced. Had to investigate further so toted the little speakers to various HiFi shops, hooked up to gear by CJ, Lamm, Pass and Roland, all with top notch front ends. Same Sibilance every time. After that i heard it right away when visiting shops that actually had Resp2S set-up. I attributed it to something with the mid-base driver/tweeter/x-over. I didn't have that problem with the same tweeter, diff mid-bass and x-over point ProAc 1SC/300b amp. Ultimately gave them up for lack of bass in my smallest room.
Early on in my "HiFi" journey i noticed speakers by different manufactures which appeared to employ some or all of the same drivers having the same sonic signature, good or bad. I concluded the drivers are going to do certain things well or not so good despite different implementations regardless of the better or worse attributes complimented (or not), by box design.
Again my recollection of the vocabulary describing the A12 vs the A10.2 reminded me of what was said in the audio mags of a fair amount loudspeakers which i found not to my liking, often too sibilant.
Basically, my thoughts are Dynamics, Power Handling/low watts and a engaging yet at the same time easy to listen to sound. I've discussed ideas/issues over the months and received great answers from all. I realize the trial and error factor, yet just when i thought i knew which could be right for me i read something that raised concern and cast doubt (the A.D.D factor of a significant snow fall and skiing didn't help either). If the analytical/cold/warm differences are small and you're picking at straws, i'd feel more comfortable with the A12. The Silbury/A10.2 is appealing but i realized Scott's rear firing types, Mashowe, Victor etc., are better suited to my rooms just not for drivers i'm not interested in. So the insanity continues, glad i've narrowed it down to only two drivers, now if i could pick one...
What i like:
Dynamic contrast, i.e., loud/soft jumps in music with the impact of how it sounds live, but without having to listen at those ear damaging volume levels to get it.
Wide well balanced bw.
Quality bass, not earth shaking.
Warmish and easy to listen to.
Rooms = small - modest, furniture/carpet "damped" (no basement foundation or hurricane region cinder block walls).
Source = Sony XA707ES cdp i've had for years and am happy with. Belt drive and DD old Technics TT's, not great but at this point i lack the patience to do vinyl right for it to be worth investing in better.
Not ready to get into DAC's/high rez downloads.
Now for the boring long winded part. I'm not educated enough to know the EE tech aspects of vocal sibilance. Bought up the issue on diyaudio wrt, iirc the Fostex 138ES-R. Seemed like the next great driver for me to work with till i read more of them. Was told the fq resp plot didn't show peaks in the region which would cause sibilance. Experience began with a not even one year old ProAc Response 2S on loan from another audiophile. I read stellar reviews in many audio mags. Sounded good the first few hours till i began to play female artist. Thought perhaps it was bad system matching since the audio reviewers never mentioned it and it was so pronounced. Had to investigate further so toted the little speakers to various HiFi shops, hooked up to gear by CJ, Lamm, Pass and Roland, all with top notch front ends. Same Sibilance every time. After that i heard it right away when visiting shops that actually had Resp2S set-up. I attributed it to something with the mid-base driver/tweeter/x-over. I didn't have that problem with the same tweeter, diff mid-bass and x-over point ProAc 1SC/300b amp. Ultimately gave them up for lack of bass in my smallest room.
Early on in my "HiFi" journey i noticed speakers by different manufactures which appeared to employ some or all of the same drivers having the same sonic signature, good or bad. I concluded the drivers are going to do certain things well or not so good despite different implementations regardless of the better or worse attributes complimented (or not), by box design.
Again my recollection of the vocabulary describing the A12 vs the A10.2 reminded me of what was said in the audio mags of a fair amount loudspeakers which i found not to my liking, often too sibilant.
Basically, my thoughts are Dynamics, Power Handling/low watts and a engaging yet at the same time easy to listen to sound. I've discussed ideas/issues over the months and received great answers from all. I realize the trial and error factor, yet just when i thought i knew which could be right for me i read something that raised concern and cast doubt (the A.D.D factor of a significant snow fall and skiing didn't help either). If the analytical/cold/warm differences are small and you're picking at straws, i'd feel more comfortable with the A12. The Silbury/A10.2 is appealing but i realized Scott's rear firing types, Mashowe, Victor etc., are better suited to my rooms just not for drivers i'm not interested in. So the insanity continues, glad i've narrowed it down to only two drivers, now if i could pick one...
The Alpair12 is none of those things.
The A7, 10.2, 12 are all very much of the same family. Similarity far outweighs any differences. Differences lie largely along what you expect given cone size. (the one thing that isn't expected is that A12 goes no lower than A10.2).
For myself, who holds the ability to throw a deep 3D image/soundstage as very important, i pick the A7 over the A12 (i think A10.2 is closer to A7 than A12 in this respect). No question thou that a need for big dynamics, the A12s cone area comes to the fore. One can ameriolate that, by spending the differnce between A12 and A7 or 10.2 on 2 (or 4) helper woofers, but that leads to a more complex system.
dave
Mark and others, y'all have mentioned that all of the equipment must be compatible for a great sounding reproduction and obviously some of the more esoteric equipment is a bit out of my price range. I'm currently building one of Peter Daniel's LM3875 Premium dual mono gainclone kits. Would this kind of amplification be suitable for the A12's or A10.2's? Cd player is still up in the air as I'm just now venturing into home audio. Though I can tell you that when the purchase is made it will most likely be a budget CD player with average performance, though within a couple hundred dollars or so. Any input you can give me would greatly help as I'm still in the building process of my listening room and the equipment I'll use is still undecided upon besides for the Audiosector gainclone.
Thanks,
Steven Z
Thanks,
Steven Z
Mark,
I have a questions about alternatice enclosure material. I am in the glass business and have acces to any type of glass in any thickness as well as tempered or laminated. If i had the pieces for the Pensil cut and bonded them with a 1/4" seam using heavy polyurethane caulk, would this work. I don't have a very good understanding of material effects on final sound. i know a particular speaker maker has supposedly come out with "super glass" for their designs and it has been well received. I am just looking to put my mark on this whole process.
I have a questions about alternatice enclosure material. I am in the glass business and have acces to any type of glass in any thickness as well as tempered or laminated. If i had the pieces for the Pensil cut and bonded them with a 1/4" seam using heavy polyurethane caulk, would this work. I don't have a very good understanding of material effects on final sound. i know a particular speaker maker has supposedly come out with "super glass" for their designs and it has been well received. I am just looking to put my mark on this whole process.
Hi Steve,
Sure, matching equipment is all part of the fun.
Re the CD player. A quality used player might be the way to go. For example:
Denon DCD1550 for sale on Ebay (DCD 1650 is even better if you can find one):
Denon DCD-1550AR Audiophile CD Player - Pristine - eBay (item 320648050146 end time Feb-01-11 16:42:27 PST)
Here's an example of 2 nice Pioneer's:
Pioneer Elite PD-65 PD65 CD Player - eBay (item 280621089220 end time Feb-01-11 15:55:46 PST)
Pioneer Elite PD-65 Compact Disc Player - eBay (item 110640464613 end time Feb-04-11 11:48:28 PST)
Or something newer could come from the Cambridge Azure range:
Cambridge Audio Azur 640C CDP CD Player - eBay (item 300519569669 end time Feb-02-11 18:20:14 PST)
I think the Peter Daniel's Gainclones put out around 40watts (8 Ohm). If so, this should be OK for either Alpair 10.2 or 12. Also consider the Alpair 7. I have run Pencil 7's at home on either solid state or tubes.
Cheers
Mark.
Hi Buzz,
I've seen glass boxes before. Not sure how well they work but if the glass is thick enough to keep cab resonance down, could be a very interesting project. If you do it, please post pics and listening impressions - thanks.
Cheers
Mark.
Mark, i found links of my primary gear:
CDP, Sony CDP-X707ES & CDP-777ESJ on TVK
Amp, 6moons audio reviews: Fi 45 Stereo "Prototype"
*note i have the 2A3 stereo version not the 45 prototype featured.
I alternate between JJ 2A3-40 and Shuguang treasure black bottle 2A3-Z power tubes.
Additional gear:
B&K solid state preamp i only use when i need the phono stage for the primary system, otherwise i use my HH Scott 222c int amp for vinyl. I run the Fi 2A3 amp direct via the X707ES variable output option.
Speaker wire: Kimber 8tc
And yes a picture's worth a thousand words only i haven't replaced my broken digicam, cell phone died, stuck with old one till verizon comes out with 4G phones in the spring/summer. Tried taking the pics with the old cell but they were terrible.
If i use the 35mm SLR i'll prob have your drivers by the time i'd get the film processed, which going from what buzz and Dave said, doesn't really seem like such a bad thing either.
CDP, Sony CDP-X707ES & CDP-777ESJ on TVK
Amp, 6moons audio reviews: Fi 45 Stereo "Prototype"
*note i have the 2A3 stereo version not the 45 prototype featured.
I alternate between JJ 2A3-40 and Shuguang treasure black bottle 2A3-Z power tubes.
Additional gear:
B&K solid state preamp i only use when i need the phono stage for the primary system, otherwise i use my HH Scott 222c int amp for vinyl. I run the Fi 2A3 amp direct via the X707ES variable output option.
Speaker wire: Kimber 8tc
And yes a picture's worth a thousand words only i haven't replaced my broken digicam, cell phone died, stuck with old one till verizon comes out with 4G phones in the spring/summer. Tried taking the pics with the old cell but they were terrible.
If i use the 35mm SLR i'll prob have your drivers by the time i'd get the film processed, which going from what buzz and Dave said, doesn't really seem like such a bad thing either.
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